EMS Self Defense

[RXMedic579]

As we all know, EMS providers can't carry weapons of any sort, However in the event someone attacks you, pulls a gun, a knife, any kind of weapon , can an EMT or Medic take you down as would a police officer.As an EMS provider myself, we all know there is the certain crowd of people who don't like us and will try to harm us any way possible.I've never heard anyone mention before what the regulations are in a scenario like this.

 

[Veneficus]

look up dt4ems

I report no economic interest in such.

I just recognize the obviousness of the value.

 

[leoemt]

As we all know, EMS providers can't carry weapons of any sort, However in the event someone attacks you, pulls a gun, a knife, any kind of weapon , can an EMT or Medic take you down as would a police officer.As an EMS provider myself, we all know there is the certain crowd of people who don't like us and will try to harm us any way possible.I've never heard anyone mention before what the regulations are in a scenario like this.

As a former cop and someone who is highly trained in Defensive Tactics I can tell you this is something that I have thought about.

However, one needs to remember your job is to help the patient and not to inflict further pain. Of course the top priority is your safety.

With that being said, why are you being attacked? Is it because the patient is under the influence of drugs or alcohol? Possible head injury? What about a mental disorder or other condition that affects the mental ability?

Everyone has the right to defend themselves from attack and EMS is no exception. The key here is to use REASONABLE, PRUDENT and JUSTIFIABLE force to protect you and your partner.

The majority of tactics we use in law enforcement are taken from the martial arts - kung fu and jujitsu being the most common. Our tactics are designed to obtain compliance without inflicting too much pain or permanent injury. Sometimes the smallest thing can be the most effective. Finger locks, wrist manipulation and arm bars are all tactics that are highly effective and can be taught to anyone in a matter of minutes. The key to a good technique is your ability to remember how to do it correctly.

Being in EMS you will have the added burden of having to prove you were really a victim of attack and that the aggressiveness wasn't a result of something else like I mentioned above. It would not hurt to learn a few control techniques though. Our tactics are proven in court and are deemed medically safe. My advice would be to contact a police DT instructor and see if they can put on a quick class for you.

Here in WA State, Assaulting an EMT / Medic (or any other healthcare worker) is Assault 3rd and is a class C felony (same as assaulting a cop). I have personally arrested a couple of people for assaulting EMT's but it was rare and usually it was either family or a bystander.

Your safety is number 1.

 

[DT4EMS]

As a former cop and someone who is highly trained in Defensive Tactics I can tell you this is something that I have thought about.

However, one needs to remember your job is to help the patient and not to inflict further pain. Of course the top priority is your safety.

With that being said, why are you being attacked? Is it because the patient is under the influence of drugs or alcohol? Possible head injury? What about a mental disorder or other condition that affects the mental ability?

Everyone has the right to defend themselves from attack and EMS is no exception. The key here is to use REASONABLE, PRUDENT and JUSTIFIABLE force to protect you and your partner.

The majority of tactics we use in law enforcement are taken from the martial arts - kung fu and jujitsu being the most common. Our tactics are designed to obtain compliance without inflicting too much pain or permanent injury. Sometimes the smallest thing can be the most effective. Finger locks, wrist manipulation and arm bars are all tactics that are highly effective and can be taught to anyone in a matter of minutes. The key to a good technique is your ability to remember how to do it correctly.

Being in EMS you will have the added burden of having to prove you were really a victim of attack and that the aggressiveness wasn't a result of something else like I mentioned above. It would not hurt to learn a few control techniques though. Our tactics are proven in court and are deemed medically safe. My advice would be to contact a police DT instructor and see if they can put on a quick class for you.

Here in WA State, Assaulting an EMT / Medic (or any other healthcare worker) is Assault 3rd and is a class C felony (same as assaulting a cop). I have personally arrested a couple of people for assaulting EMT's but it was rare and usually it was either family or a bystander.

Your safety is number 1.

While I whole heartedly agree with most of what you said....... as a law enforcement DT instructor..... most officers are not taught "self-defense" or anything truly "defensive" in LEO style DT training.

The average officer is trained in the "Mechanics of Arrest and Control". Those two things have no place in EMS.

I have spend the last 17 years researching this particular subject as it relates to EMS/Fire and ED staff.

An issue that has come to light is........... because EMS is such a young profession, we are still learning our "culture" and our place. Since we are so closely associated with police, on so many scenes....... we have learned many tactics or techniques through osmosis.

This osmosis type of training has its pros and cons. Here are a couple of the cons.......

Police officers have no duty to retreat. EMS should retreat.
Police have hundreds of hours of training in how to put a person into temporary restraints.... after all...regardless of the tool (MACE, Baton, Taser) they all end with the restraint tool of handcuffs. EMS gets an average of 4-8 hours of training.......if that...... on "restraints".

The average officer does NOT jump to hands on first thing if faced with a resisting/assaultive suspect. Instead they (usually) chose a tool such as a Taser or OC spray..... EMS has no tools for if empty hand skills fail.

The mindset of an officer is "I will win". Meaning they have resolved to do whatever it takes to take a suspect into custody. EMS must have a mindset of ESCAPE as the priority, not "custody".

This subject takes hours to explain. It's difficult to explain in a short setting. But the short of it is this.....

In EMS we must train in 4 specific areas when it comes to personal safety:

1) Mind- getting past the initial resistance to defend yourself
2) Street- train in skills that work more often than not
3) Media- Skills (verbal and physical) need to look good on camera
4) Courtroom- through skills that are "reasonable", documentation and mandated reporting of assaults to supervisors and police.

So if you chose to train..... there is no real difference of what "techniques" or "system" you train in.....just make sure it meets the "4" areas I listed. Because self-defense for EMS is so much more than just "techniques".

 

[mycrofft]

With all due respect, use SEARCH.
Take the example of subduing a patient with force in the back of your ambulance. What would the subsequent consequences be?

 

[leoemt]

While I whole heartedly agree with most of what you said....... as a law enforcement DT instructor..... most officers are not taught "self-defense" or anything truly "defensive" in LEO style DT training.

The average officer is trained in the "Mechanics of Arrest and Control". Those two things have no place in EMS.

I have spend the last 17 years researching this particular subject as it relates to EMS/Fire and ED staff.

An issue that has come to light is........... because EMS is such a young profession, we are still learning our "culture" and our place. Since we are so closely associated with police, on so many scenes....... we have learned many tactics or techniques through osmosis.

This osmosis type of training has its pros and cons. Here are a couple of the cons.......

Police officers have no duty to retreat. EMS should retreat.
Police have hundreds of hours of training in how to put a person into temporary restraints.... after all...regardless of the tool (MACE, Baton, Taser) they all end with the restraint tool of handcuffs. EMS gets an average of 4-8 hours of training.......if that...... on "restraints".

The average officer does NOT jump to hands on first thing if faced with a resisting/assaultive suspect. Instead they (usually) chose a tool such as a Taser or OC spray..... EMS has no tools for if empty hand skills fail.

The mindset of an officer is "I will win". Meaning they have resolved to do whatever it takes to take a suspect into custody. EMS must have a mindset of ESCAPE as the priority, not "custody".

This subject takes hours to explain. It's difficult to explain in a short setting. But the short of it is this.....

In EMS we must train in 4 specific areas when it comes to personal safety:

1) Mind- getting past the initial resistance to defend yourself
2) Street- train in skills that work more often than not
3) Media- Skills (verbal and physical) need to look good on camera
4) Courtroom- through skills that are "reasonable", documentation and mandated reporting of assaults to supervisors and police.

So if you chose to train..... there is no real difference of what "techniques" or "system" you train in.....just make sure it meets the "4" areas I listed. Because self-defense for EMS is so much more than just "techniques".

Actually we are trained in self defense. We use what is called a Use of Force Continuum which has different levels of force ranging from officer presence to deadly force.

While the mission of law enforcement is different than EMS we can and still do retreat and we are trained to do so to wait for back up or SWAT, etc. You are correct though in the fact that we can't just ignore a situation.

That said, the Level 1 and most of our Level 2 tactics are not law enforcement specific and are taught in martial arts dojos. Further, we have demonstrated these techniques to civilians in the past as part of self defense programs.

There is nothing that couldn't be adapted to EMS especially since these tactics have been proven in court to be an acceptable form of self defense.

An arm bar or a gooseneck can be taught to anyone and is easy to apply under stress.

As I mentioned previously, The State of WA recognizes the fact that people will assault EMS workers and has specifically included them in the Assault 3rd statute. It is a felony to assault an EMS worker.

Remember your safety is the top priority. Law enforcement tactics are not strictly for cops. You have the right to defend yourself even if you are an EMS worker.

 

[Lozenger19]

We have been taught self defence and can use "reasonable" force in needed as long as we can prove it is for our safety or the safety of the patient

 

[DT4EMS]

Actually we are trained in self defense. We use what is called a Use of Force Continuum which has different levels of force ranging from officer presence to deadly force.

While the mission of law enforcement is different than EMS we can and still do retreat and we are trained to do so to wait for back up or SWAT, etc. You are correct though in the fact that we can't just ignore a situation.

That said, the Level 1 and most of our Level 2 tactics are not law enforcement specific and are taught in martial arts dojos. Further, we have demonstrated these techniques to civilians in the past as part of self defense programs.

There is nothing that couldn't be adapted to EMS especially since these tactics have been proven in court to be an acceptable form of self defense.

An arm bar or a gooseneck can be taught to anyone and is easy to apply under stress.

As I mentioned previously, The State of WA recognizes the fact that people will assault EMS workers and has specifically included them in the Assault 3rd statute. It is a felony to assault an EMS worker.

Remember your safety is the top priority. Law enforcement tactics are not strictly for cops. You have the right to defend yourself even if you are an EMS worker.

My friend, in here is where the danger lies.......... something like a "transport wristlock" which is a PAIN COMPLIANCE technique has no place in an ambulance.

That is keeping "control" of someone........plus it relies on the fact a person feels pain. I commend your agency for teaching you some form of self-defense as a part of your academy. I will tell you that is not common. I have taught LEO DT since 1997....... and what most academies teach is "mechanics of arrest and control".

The words "defensive tactics" for police is actually a play on words for the jury to hear "defensive" over and over. I am very familiar with the Use of Force Continuum. I have my own version we call "Assault Response Levels" to teach what is "reasonable".

Thanks again for your posts.

 

[leoemt]

My friend, in here is where the danger lies.......... something like a "transport wristlock" which is a PAIN COMPLIANCE technique has no place in an ambulance.

That is keeping "control" of someone........plus it relies on the fact a person feels pain. I commend your agency for teaching you some form of self-defense as a part of your academy. I will tell you that is not common. I have taught LEO DT since 1997....... and what most academies teach is "mechanics of arrest and control".

The words "defensive tactics" for police is actually a play on words for the jury to hear "defensive" over and over. I am very familiar with the Use of Force Continuum. I have my own version we call "Assault Response Levels" to teach what is "reasonable".

Thanks again for your posts.

You are correct and I am not advocating we have a bunch of EMS workers running around performing goosenecks and arm bars. I used those as examples to prove my point that us in law enforcement are taught standard tactics that could be taught to anyone.

As I mentioned EMS workers have the added responsibility of proving they are legitmately being attacked as a form of aggression versus someone having a medical issue that is making them behave in an aggressive manner.

As I previously mentioned I have arrested a couple of people for assault on EMS workers in my career. In all my personal experience the suspect was a family member or friend and was not the patient themselves.

Proper self defense is having multiple tools at your disposal and knowing when to use them and how to use them. This includes tactics such as Verbal Judo as well.

My point is and has been that self defense is appropriate when used correctly. I am not advocating any particular tactic but rather pointing out that our law enforcement tactics have been proven in court.

Before the academy will teach a tactic it must be defensible in court and must be medically approved. Obviously life and death then all bets are off and we use whatever we can to survive. We are even taught to gouge eyes out with our pens if necessary.

The "I will win" attitude is important in self defense regardless if your a cop or not. Mental attitude is a vital part of self defense.

I don't know of any EMS agency or company that would discipline a worker for defending themselves when appropriate.

The first step in any self defense should be retreating, but that is not always possible. When you can't retreat or don't have the ability then properly applied self defense tactics should be used.

Remember your safety is priority one.

Thank you for your posts DT.

 

[Veneficus]

I don't know of any EMS agency or company that would discipline a worker for defending themselves when appropriate.

I don't know of even 1 that wouldn't cut an employee loose if it looked bad on TV or at a city council meeting.

While it would be great if agencies didn't discipline or terminate employees for defending themselves, I would certainly not call it the way things normally play out.

 

[DT4EMS]

You are correct and I am not advocating we have a bunch of EMS workers running around performing goosenecks and arm bars. I used those as examples to prove my point that us in law enforcement are taught standard tactics that could be taught to anyone.

As I mentioned EMS workers have the added responsibility of proving they are legitmately being attacked as a form of aggression versus someone having a medical issue that is making them behave in an aggressive manner.

As I previously mentioned I have arrested a couple of people for assault on EMS workers in my career. In all my personal experience the suspect was a family member or friend and was not the patient themselves.

Proper self defense is having multiple tools at your disposal and knowing when to use them and how to use them. This includes tactics such as Verbal Judo as well.

My point is and has been that self defense is appropriate when used correctly. I am not advocating any particular tactic but rather pointing out that our law enforcement tactics have been proven in court.

Before the academy will teach a tactic it must be defensible in court and must be medically approved. Obviously life and death then all bets are off and we use whatever we can to survive. We are even taught to gouge eyes out with our pens if necessary.

The "I will win" attitude is important in self defense regardless if your a cop or not. Mental attitude is a vital part of self defense.

I don't know of any EMS agency or company that would discipline a worker for defending themselves when appropriate.

The first step in any self defense should be retreating, but that is not always possible. When you can't retreat or don't have the ability then properly applied self defense tactics should be used.

Remember your safety is priority one.

Thank you for your posts DT.

Well..........I have personally interviewed people who contacted me after they were fired for using self-defense on the job.

I found it to be a documentation and reporting issue with the incidents...... not the actual act of defending oneself.

I made mention earlier of the 4 areas EMS must train equally in with regards to self-defense on the job. The reason is we are placed in a very unique environment. Our tactics must be different than the average self-defense or martial arts class and must be way different than the average cop gets in the academy.

Here is why.... a martial art trains to fight itself. I am a huge fan of training in the arts. If you look at my bio you will see I have spent my life training in multiple systems.

Again...... as a cop...... their empty hand is a fail-safe that transfers up and down based upon their tools (carried on their belt) that EMS does not have access to.

Again, refer to my bio and the thousands of people I have trained that make me an expert on this particular subject. I am not saying I am perfect....... but I do the research to prove my point.

 

[leoemt]

Well..........I have personally interviewed people who contacted me after they were fired for using self-defense on the job.

I found it to be a documentation and reporting issue with the incidents...... not the actual act of defending oneself.

I made mention earlier of the 4 areas EMS must train equally in with regards to self-defense on the job. The reason is we are placed in a very unique environment. Our tactics must be different than the average self-defense or martial arts class and must be way different than the average cop gets in the academy.

Here is why.... a martial art trains to fight itself. I am a huge fan of training in the arts. If you look at my bio you will see I have spent my life training in multiple systems.

Again...... as a cop...... their empty hand is a fail-safe that transfers up and down based upon their tools (carried on their belt) that EMS does not have access to.

Again, refer to my bio and the thousands of people I have trained that make me an expert on this particular subject. I am not saying I am perfect....... but I do the research to prove my point.

I agree with you and I like I said I am not saying we train everyone to Law Enforcement standards. I was merely pointing out the fact that Law Enforcement use tactics taught in any self defense class.

You are absolutely right in that documentation is key.

I guess we will agree to disagree then

 

[DT4EMS]

I agree with you and I like I said I am not saying we train everyone to Law Enforcement standards. I was merely pointing out the fact that Law Enforcement use tactics taught in any self defense class.

You are absolutely right in that documentation is key.

I guess we will agree to disagree then

Which academy did you go to? Do you remember the name of the system they taught you in the academy? Was it PPCT?

The reason I ask.....

Having taught for the Missouri Sheriff's Training Academy- Where I would travel and teach everything from Expandable Baton, Defensive Tactics refresher, Tactical Folding Knife, Handcuffing etc. I never found many of the same "techniques" I taught my martial arts students.

Now, with that..... I have trained in Karate (where I obtained my third degree black belt), I have IC_Guru Status from P. Greg Alland (FMA of stick and knife work) trained in BJJ and submission grappling for 2 years of which a grappling coach was in the school I ran.

I have 22 years in EMS- both urban and rural.......... 17 years of law enforcement where I have held multiple roles including patrol, FTO, sergeant, DARE, SRO and even Chief Deputy.

Now in EMS I have been an educator teaching everything from ACLS, PALS, PHTLS, EMT and Medic Core Curriculuum and was named the subject matter expert for the NAEMT's Safety course that is being taught nationwide.

I currently have 71 instructors teaching my EVE4EMS/Fire across the country in places like Denver, Dayton, Panama City, Durham, New Britain etc.

If you look in the DT4EMS section below you will see a letter written by the president of the Arkansas EMT Association because we now have their backing.

I say this not to brag. It is that there is a huge difference in what EMS needs to receive as training for scene safety tactics. It is not and has little to nothing to do with what a cop gets in an academy.

So where did you go to the academy and what was it (system wise) you were taught? I am curious not trying to be rude at all. I am just always happy to hear when academies are doing more than the minimum.