EMS Medical Director pulls 18 more ALS certs (Paramedic privileges) from FFs

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VentMedic

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This is a continuation of the Collier FD (FL) Paramedics drama that puts them into the hall of shame.

Previous recent thread:

Collier EMS director pulls certification of 25 paramedics

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=14529&page=4

Tober pulls advanced life support certification of 18 more firefighters

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2009/sep/03/tober-pulls-advanced-life-support-certification-18/

NAPLES — Eighteen more firefighters are having their advanced life support certifications pulled by Collier County Emergency Medical Services.
The move comes at a time when some fire districts may soon propose to county officials that they have their own EMS licenses.

Five more North Naples firefighters and 13 firefighters from the East Naples district are no longer permitted to do advanced life support because they failed to do ride-alongs on ambulances as required, said Dan Bowman, deputy chief of EMS. Last week, 25 North Naples firefighters were decertified.
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Paramedics Medication Administration Record
http://media.naplesnews.com/media/static/Paramedics_medication_administration_report.pdf


Paramedics Procedures Performed
http://media.naplesnews.com/media/static/Paramedics_procedures_performed_report.pdf
 
Dr. Tober is a brave man, and I admire him for holding paramedics to the standards established by the EMS system, unlike what happens around here.

Bravo.
 
daedalus said:
Dr. Tober is a brave man, and I admire him for holding paramedics to the standards established by the EMS system, unlike what happens around here.

Bravo.
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If he had a twin who was an EMS Medical Director, I'd send him to L.A. ...once FL is conquered and on the right path of EMS professionalism.
 
I think it is sad that the Fire departments have actually convinced the public that evil Dr. Tober is taking away the hero firefighter's ability to provide emergency medical care in case they have an emergency. The way I understand it they are still EMTs and can provide BLS until the ALS ambulance gets on scene. That is perfectly acceptable care in my opinion.
 
I can not believe the FD didn't just put their arses on an ambulance rotation schedule if they wanted ALS status...Period. The FDs were the ones that wanted to do ALS EMS as the county already has Collier EMS.
 
I applaud this MD for taking a stand against the fire unions
 
VentMedic said:
I can not believe the FD didn't just put their arses on an ambulance rotation schedule if they wanted ALS status...Period. The FDs were the ones that wanted to do ALS EMS as the county already has Collier EMS.
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if they just followed the rules, they would have their ALS certs.
 
In the state of Montana, the fastest growing "EMT reviews" are coming from self-policing to give professionalism a chance to grow. Since we all operate under a professional license here, with a state board and state rules, protocols, and regulations, it's nice to know these things are happening.

Our medical directors just recently have been required by the state to attend official training. One organization that I work for has gotten a new medical director who is very much like Dr. Tober. He has rooted out much of the unprofessionalism and even helped end the "small problem" of some EMTs having fraudulent licenses.

With any luck, more medical directors will behave like Dr. Tober.
 
There should be more of it.

Fire has no business in EMS.

Keep them seperate

EMS has enough losers without bringing fire into it.
 
downunderwunda said:
There should be more of it.

Fire has no business in EMS.

Keep them seperate

EMS has enough losers without bringing fire into it.
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I disagree on your generalization, and I don't think this thread is about your generalization. In my area, the FF/EMT-Ps get lots of action, as the first responders to dispatch. I've worked shoulder-to-shoulder with them as an EMT-B, and they know their stuff. They are the paramedics on-scene until the mixed AMR ambu gets there for transport. They (and I) take our roles and training responsibilities very seriously.
 
berkeman said:
I disagree on your generalization, and I don't think this thread is about your generalization. In my area, the FF/EMT-Ps get lots of action, as the first responders to dispatch. I've worked shoulder-to-shoulder with them as an EMT-B, and they know their stuff. They are the paramedics on-scene until the mixed AMR ambu gets there for transport. They (and I) take our roles and training responsibilities very seriously.
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I believe downunderwunda is from the country "down under" which does not have the problems this country has with the FDs, private ambulances and education issues. His country may have other issues in EMS as it is rare to find a perfect system but I doubt if they are to the same magnitude as those in the U.S.

Just obtaining the minimum necessary to get the FD job or having all FFs go through a program offering only minimum hours to make every FF a Paramedic is what has been the downfall of several FDs' reputation as EMS providers. It is the wrong approach. Many FDs have and some still do provide good EMS but many have failed to maintain the standards the public they serve deserve.

If you are still seeing your Paramedics with the eyes of an EMT-B, I will ask you to re-evaluate your position once you become a Paramedic and hopefully through a solid education program and not just the minimum 1070 hours that California requires.
 
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VentMedic said:
I believe downunderwunda is from the country "down under" which does not have the problems this country has with the FDs, private ambulances and education issues. His country may have other issues in EMS as it is rare to find a perfect system but I doubt if they are to the same magnitude as those in the U.S.

Just obtaining the minimum necessary to get the FD job or having all FFs go through a program offering only minimum hours to make every FF a Paramedic is what has been the downfall of several FDs' reputation as EMS providers. It is the wrong approach. Many FDs have and some still do provide good EMS but many have failed to maintain the standards the public they serve deserve.

If you are still seeing your Paramedics with the eyes of an EMT-B, I will ask you to re-evaluate your position once you become a Paramedic and hopefully through a solid education program and not just the minimum 1070 hours that California requires.
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Or better yet, leave CA and go somewhere where there is actually progressive EMS
 
VentMedic said:
I believe downunderwunda is from the country "down under" which does not have the problems this country has with the FDs, private ambulances and education issues. His country may have other issues in EMS as it is rare to find a perfect system but I doubt if they are to the same magnitude as those in the U.S.

Just obtaining the minimum necessary to get the FD job or having all FFs go through a program offering only minimum hours to make every FF a Paramedic is what has been the downfall of several FDs' reputation as EMS providers. It is the wrong approach. Many FDs have and some still do provide good EMS but many have failed to maintain the standards the public they serve deserve.

If you are still seeing your Paramedics with the eyes of an EMT-B, I will ask you to re-evaluate your position once you become a Paramedic and hopefully through a solid education program and not just the minimum 1070 hours that California requires.
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Very true Vent. We are not aligned with Fire. We dont want to be aligned with Fire.

For good reason.

The core business of a Fire Department is, oddly enough, to fight fires. So let them fight fires. If they do not have enough work to fight fires, take the funding & give it to EMS as a seperate service, able to justify its position & funding.

I fail to see any correlation between Firefighting & EMS.

It doesnt work. Seperate them, Make each show why they deserve the money independent of the other, then see who is doing the work.

Just a thought, instead of EMS being an offshoot of the fire dept, the fire dept should be a sub branch of EMS!!!!!
 
downunderwunda said:
Very true Vent. We are not aligned with Fire. We dont want to be aligned with Fire.

For good reason.

The core business of a Fire Department is, oddly enough, to fight fires. So let them fight fires. If they do not have enough work to fight fires, take the funding & give it to EMS as a seperate service, able to justify its position & funding.

I fail to see any correlation between Firefighting & EMS.

It doesnt work. Seperate them, Make each show why they deserve the money independent of the other, then see who is doing the work.

Just a thought, instead of EMS being an offshoot of the fire dept, the fire dept should be a sub branch of EMS!!!!!
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Well put. Not that I totally agree..but well said. You have a valid argument.
 
281mustang said:
Exactly, they brought it on themselves.
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Such a violation of public trust IMO. Sadly, this is happening all over our country and something I've fought in my state for almost 10 years. So far it has resulted in little change but, I think we're getting closer. When a state agency, which controls the renewal of licensure, education and CE's makes the statement; "We have a relationship with _____ambulance", it is an all up hill battle.

Fighting fraud is a lot harder than people realize. Politics tends to play hard ball with the backing and support dollars of well, the EMS system itself. Students, workers, educators...none of them are stepping up to the plate. Incompetence and fraud are rampant, especially when it comes to CE's. FD's are actually better than many of the private ambulance companies from what I can tell. Both have issues.
 
rescue99 said:
Fighting fraud is a lot harder than people realize.
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Unfortunately(?) this can not even be called fraud because the FD and the FFs were pretty blatant in expressing they did not want to rotate on an ambulance even for the very few times required or follow their Medical Director's orders. Somewhere in their minimum hours of Paramedic training someone forgot to tell them they work under the Medical Director's license.
 
VentMedic said:
Unfortunately(?) this can not even be called fraud because the FD and the FFs were pretty blatant in expressing they did not want to rotate on an ambulance even for the very few times required or follow their Medical Director's orders. Somewhere in their minimum hours of Paramedic training someone forgot to tell them they work under the Medical Director's license.
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There was intent to violate policy, period. If the policy is a licensure issue then yes, fraud could be the result. All depends on whose rules were broken and what the repercussions are and of course, how far someone takes these violations. It's a tad more complicated than these folks didn't do a shift in the back of a rig. They violated the very conditions in which they are able to work as medics which could put any certification/licensure to practice in jeopardy.
 
I don't know if this is the case here but if the chief is taking the side of the fire fighters on the lack of continuing ed or documentation of EMS skills. Then is it also possible that someone needs to look into how continuing ed of fire fighting skills are being handled. Not saying that things are not being handled correctly just concerned about the possibility of a "good old boys" system being in place here.
 
This area already had those issues recently and a couple of FDs in Collier were also guilty of sloppy record keeping and failure to check certifications. There were a couple that let their EMT certs lapse and at least one Paramedic that falsified his cert because they only give a year to obtain it if you do not have it at hire. They also have had issues with some driving emergency vehicles that had not met their training stanards. So, yes, they do need some oversight.

Dr. Tober has already tried to get attention from the state certification board on a few issues but so far they have not intervened. For the Paramedic (or pretend Paramedic), the FD (Marco Island) made a statement that even though he didn't have a Paramedic cert he could still do all the procedures he did as an intern. It didn't seem to matter that he was wearing a Paramedic patch and the FD listed him as a certified Paramedic. However, he did lose his job but more for falsifying documents rather than performining medical procedures without a license.
 
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