Do you get training on how to deal with this stuff?

[Vonny]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79lf2ftQwAs

 

[Shishkabob]

Yes, it's called "Scene safety" and let the cops do their jobs.

 

[Vonny]

Yes, it's called "Scene safety" and let the cops do their jobs.

Dead right!
I would have ran a mile from there....

 

[Sapphyre]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79lf2ftQwAs

It's called retreat, I practiced it friday night, with a drunk that went from unresponsive to combative in like, a split second. Took 3 cops, and 2 tazers (dry stun) to take him down.

 

[VentMedic]

The Paramedic stepped right into the guy's punch. He took his stance into the combative guy's space.

 

[DT4EMS]

That video is what got me started posting on www.paramedictv.com It was the first place I saw this clip.

Several issues are a problem here. First........ this happens way more than people like to think. With that I will start............


1) Failure to train- Agencies and staff are both at fault. We work in an environment where chances are........you will face a situation of assault in some form or fashion.

2) Skills- Verbal and physical........ he guy in this clip is a BYSTANDER who became irate.

In this situation .........like many others....... is covered in our "Six Steps"

Step #1 Don't be on an unsafe scene. Well here the EMS provider was presented with the situation. SO the choice to leave may not have been a bad idea.

Step#2 Awareness- Once he realized the scene was going bad........ Start being more aware of exit opportunities/Cover/Concealment etc.

Step#3 Safe Distance- Here the dirtbag was getting amped and showing he wanted to fight. Provider should have raised his hands non-aggressive and back up. Then move to Step #2 Above then Step#1 above.

Step#4 The Double Tap- Here .....if YOU screwed up and didn't pay attention to the previous steps..... a parry and get the heck out of dodge.

But... Keep on keepin on........... Once we make the spotlight this October......... Agencies are going to be like an "I Love Lucy" episode............. "Lucy......you got sum splanin' tu do!" when it comes to failing to train for situations JUST LIKE THIS!

 

[emtfarva]

WTF was that medic thinking. Back the :censored: off dude.
Scene safety. wtf...

 

[Shishkabob]

There's a martial arts place next to one of my parents stores. They dropped of a flyer one day and it stated that police, fire, and EMS get discounts.


Needless to say, I was shocked at the EMS one considering the city is a dual system, so I didn't think the civilians would know the difference

 

[fortsmithman]

I am trained to deal with that. The training wasn't part of my EMS training. I"m trained to only use force if there is no way out. If I were in that situation as soon as the individual got belligerent I and the rest of my partners would just get back in the rig and call for police backup. I say partners because my service runs 3 members on our main rig and 2 members on our backup rig.

 

[Ridryder911]

Okay, this is the same post I posted when this happened. Let's hear the other side of the story. This was a Paramedic Supv. standing there and assisting the crew. The man (by the way was on PCP) was inside of a car and suddenly without warning or explanation suddenly took of his shirt and started towards the Paramedic.

The Paramedic whom was standing near OKC Police officers (and assuming the Police would probably intervene if needed) was suddenly struck. The Paramedic was more shocked that this occurred and I was proud of actually how he handled himself. He did fight back or defend himself in attempting to get away.

Before calling scene safe and all the other memorization B.S. ... This was not a Registry test but real life. The scene was safe they were working on the scene, the scene changed with no rhyme or reason. The Police (multiple officers) were on and at the scene, again just standing beside the medics. Now what?

This action has propelled a new legislation this week to make it Felony to strike an EMS worker (as it was a misdemeanor) but he did get a felony charge for striking the Police and Fire Fighter (ironic huh?) and interfering with emergency workers & possession of drugs, and abandonment of children and unsafe area (he left his child in a auto).

R/r 911

 

[marineman]

I agree with rid, I read the story when it first came out. Scene was safe, crap happens, scene was no longer safe, take measures to protect yourself without escalating a situation.

Honest question for anyone good with legal matter, as I recall they were tending to a fairly critical patient in an MVC and this man became irate due to the length of his wait in traffic. If you were tending to a patient and this man approached you and you retreated would that be considered abandonment? What if something happened to your patient during that time and that caused your patient not to make it, negligence or not since you were protecting yourself? Those scenarios seem to be 1 in 1,000,000 but with my luck it's much closer to 1:1.

 

[lightsandsirens5]

Do you get training on how to deal with this stuff?

Yep! It's called: DT4EMS!

Of course, he'd be the first to tell you to not geet in that situation in the first place.

 

[fortsmithman]

If this were to happen while treating a pt then I would not retreat. I would defend myself and my partners.

 

[Aidey]

If there is one thing I've ever learned it is do NOT fu*k around with Pts on PCP. Period.

One of the freakiest things I have ever seen was a patient in an ED who was about 6'4'' and 260 or so lbs of mostly muscle who was high on PCP. He flipped over one of the ED beds when security was coming to try and get him under control.

They had just about every security guard in the hospital on this guy and finally one of the nurses got close enough to give him something IM that knocked him on his butt.

 

[chute43]

If you were tending to a patient and this man approached you and you retreated would that be considered abandonment? QUOTE]

It would only be considered abandonment if you didnt have the intention of returning to care for the patient. In addition the pt would have to have something (worsening conditioning)resulting from you retreating, to hold up in court. Not saying that someone wouldnt take you to court over it, but they have little chance of winning. As long as you have the intention of returning. I would also say dont drop the pt while retreating. We had a similiar situation, where a GSW call was secured by Sheriffs, then declared unsafe, as the shooters came back drive by style. We retreated, then returned to snatch and grab the patient.

I also wouldn't run from the scene with my hands over my head screaming either, Lol

kary

 

[DT4EMS]

I stand by my earlier post........... The failure to train for these types of situations is what is most detrimental to how people react to the situation.

It has already been proven in numerous court cases involving Use of Force. Now you see how a Jury can be persuaded that a police officer was this mean guy just beating up some poor defenseless suspect……… because in the heat of the moment, a person reverts to training….. and the PUBLIC (jury) gets to pick it apart and deliberate the situation that unfolded in seconds, over many days. So your split second response WILL be judged.

The part of this that hacks me off is this happens every day to EMS and ER personnel. It is just rarely caught on tape or reported well in the media. So….. administrations don’t take it serious.

Like I have said a million times…………. “It’s not important to you until it is important to YOU.”

 

[Hockey]

Chuck Norris would have never allowed that to be happen, but its Chuck Norris.


Working in the dangerous city I work in, I have been swung on. Sure PD is there, but nobody cares. You learn how to defend yourself. You get hit, you defend yourself.

If someone hits you, you full out defend yourself to stop the attack. Retreating usually doesn't help it seems

 

[VentMedic]

Chuck Norris would have never allowed that to be happen, but its Chuck Norris.


Working in the dangerous city I work in, I have been swung on. Sure PD is there, but nobody cares. You learn how to defend yourself. You get hit, you defend yourself.

If someone hits you, you full out defend yourself to stop the attack. Retreating usually doesn't help it seems

Are you saying the PD in your area is incompetent or just don't like to fight as you might do?

The problem occurs when some think they are Chuck Norris. If retreating removes you out of reach of another punch, then it has helped. If you are no longer in the person's face to continue agitating them, it can help. Defending yourself is one thing but doing something stupid that makes you look like the aggressor is something else. Taking a Chuck Norris stance is one of those things. If someone is taping your aggression even if in defense, it may come across as the OP video where the Paramedic put himself in the combative person's face. That may be what the jury will see also. Just like the Rodney King tape, we didn't see the whole situation.

I've spent my entire career working in a city known for its violence. You choose your battles wisely, let LEOs do their job and don't create more problems than you can handle as well as getting someone severely injured.

Look at some of the advice and videos on DT4EMS' website.

 

[Steve Whitehead]

Are you saying the PD in your area is incompetent or just don't like to fight as you might do? QUOTE]

Come on now VentMedic, I don't think he said either one of those things.

Sometimes you get swung on. It happens. I've been in these situations and handled some of them well and I've handled some of them poorly.

I've had some interactions that left me very glad nobody was there with a camera. I think there's some things this guy could have done better, but in the moment you get a sense about people. Some people you take a non-threatening posture. Some people you take a defensive posture. This guy, I probably would have gone with the open handed non- threatening pose. But I hesitate to say the medic did it wrong. He may have made a bad choice.