As Anti-Fire as I am Lets Stop Fire Bashing

[medic417]

As Anti-Fire as I am I vote Lets Stop Fire Bashing. I think everyone knows those of us that don't like fire in the EMS field. But guess what whining on here does nothing but hinder educational discussions. If you want to keep bashing fire do it in the local media so you can get your communities to change.

We need to get back to applauding quality patient care and bashing poor patient care regardless of whp provided it and seeing what we can learn from it.

Now unions........................

 

[Veneficus]

I guess it depends on what you call "bashing."

If bashing is pointing out a point of view that does not celebrate fire fighters as some larger than life hero beyond reproach, I will not stop bashing.

But I do try to refrain from calling people hose monkeys and suggesting they are not capable of becoming better.

I don't consider reminding firefighters they are vocational laborers as bashing. Am I wrong?

I am also not sure how to seperate the Union political action commitee that lobbies against expanded education which directly relates to patient care.

How do you seperate poor patient care practices from operational norms like putting 4 paramedics on every engine company and 2 on every transport ambulance?

Honestly, I think what may be labeled as "bashing," is just a difference in opinon over what constitutes good patient care.

For example, is the primary goal of transport to an emergency department good patient care? Is the economics and logistical problems associated with transporting every patient to an ED good patient care?

Let's face it, when you try to defend your patient care with : "who does background checks? because other providers are molesting patients" (which molesting patients is bad for care I think ) How could we possibly have a constructive discussion?

Is "bashing" simply going against the grain of the propaganda?

I'm not trying to be smart or anything, but what is the secret to discuss improving patient care and advancing the system without pointing out the flaws in the current system? How do things improve if the status quo is sacred?

 

[medic417]

Ven it just seems instead of talking about the patient care almost every discussion turns to fire is ruining EMS which I agree it is. But we learn nothing of value when no one discusses the patient care issue that the OP started. So I am asking we that we stop debating the fire ruining EMS and focus on patient care.

 

[firetender]

Bashing is inappropriate. We, who whether we like it or not are in the same fraternity need to speak of each other with respect.

There are, however, a consistent number of reports of some things not quite working right and the perception of many in EMS (in some cases including FF themselves!), that quality EMS instead of being a goal unto itself is considered a tool to heighten the operations of a larger organization, not medically oriented. Most distressing of all are reports of systems designed to reduce the ability of their EMS personnel to deliver quality patient care because their priorities, by their own admission, are not on medical intervention.

It's kind of like a war thing. We all know the war sucks but to get down on the Warriors serves no one. It's a systemic problem.

EMS 2.0 is on the right track. It's using the guys/gals in the street as a resource to address the problems and design new ways to approach the patient care that we actually deliver.

 

[abuan]

i'm new to EMS and still don't really understand the tension with fire.

i'm in a system where many ff are emt-basic trained with many who are on the engines and ladders that were former emts with EMS but have crossed over to the fire service.

there also happens to be a tad over twice the amount of fire apparatuses than ambulances, so often times an apparatus is on scene first.

doesn't that just promote the BLS before ALS way we approach EVERY call just on a grander scale?

or am i just being naive about something?

 

[medic417]

The problem many have with fire is that money that should be put back into improving patient care goes for more fire trucks than ambulances. Also the history of most fire departments is to fight the increased education that all levels really need. And third and most sad is often fire based services often have the least amount of actual interventions available to them for patient care because they want to save money rather than lives it seems.

Just look at your comments fire getting to scene first because they have more fire trucks. Based on current building standards there is no reason fire equipment could not be cut in favor of more ambulances with higher quality equipment and higher educated Paramedics. Sadly the fire will choose new shiny trucks for the parade and then count all those expensive first responder responses in the big truck as fire calls thus helping to get more money at budget time and thus stealing money from EMS again. So the vicious cycle continues round and round.

But as we know this and even many fire Paramedics that really want to treat patients rather than sit in the lounge chairs waiting for a fire admit there is no reason to turn every discussion into this type of debate. There are many good fire Paramedics they just need to see more money put in to education and equipment for patient care. So lets discuss patient care not the battles that we we can not change here. Do the battles against fire in the local communities by educating the public of what will save more lives and quickly we will see less fire and more EMS funding.

 

[abuan]

copy. my naivete is consistent with my inexperience.

i can see how by just simply looking at the numbers between apparatuses and ambulances can be interpreted as valuing property more than health of our community.

can it be that EMS is still relatively "new" as a public service?

 

[MrBrown]

Once again, Brown does not dislike the Fire Service but forcefully distains thier involvement in the practice of prehospital medicine.

 

[medic417]

copy. my naivete is consistent with my inexperience.

i can see how by just simply looking at the numbers between apparatuses and ambulances can be interpreted as valuing property more than health of our community.

can it be that EMS is still relatively "new" as a public service?

EMS is part of the health care system. EMS is actually older than many other health fields yet has shown the least amount of progress. Fire has often fought to make it "public service" rather than health care and so to the public an ambulance is no more than a taxi. In reality we should be really as Linuss posted in another topic something like a Mobile Emergency Room.

You will find many opinions but any that do not think EMS should be doing more for patient care are not in EMS for the right reason. Those bad seeds are really what we should all be fighting no matter where they are found.

 

[iamjeff171]

in my area we have GREAT working relationships with fire. Our firefighters are primarily ff/emt, and the medical directors/cheifs/officers in our area really push ems training for the ff's.it is really great to be able to sit back and interview/assess your patient while fire is putting on leads, getting accurate vitals, spiking bags, and generally just doing everything you need to help speed along care for your patient. there are a few departments around that arent quite as compliant, but they are by far the minority.

in most cases if a department isnt playing well i feel it is because they havent been properly educated as to what our expectations are of them. Part of EMS is education, and i think that should extend to not just ourselves and the public, but also to the other services that respond with us. but, this is purely my own opinion.

one of my instructors is an ex fire/medic who always says " fire; hundreds of years of tradition unimpeded by progress." while it isnt necessarily that way in my area, i get the impression that is how it is in many areas.

 

[NepoZnati]

medic417, thank you for explaining it better... I always wonder (another newbie) why is so much animosity between us and thanks to you I start to understand the issues. Still not sure that I will be one to insult them cuz of that, but at least I understand the problem.