reaper
Working Bum
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That's why I like our random drug testing! Anytime, without warning.
Soon to be EMT-b, But an advocate for Medical Mariujana
- Thread starter Jperdy
- Start date
Meursault
Organic Mechanic
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Burnett's Law (modified) rears its ugly head!
Okay, so this thread could spark a discussion of cannabis prohibition, which past experience indicates isn't going anywhere beyond ad hominem attacks, or of medical marijuana. The second topic raises all sorts of problems, including:
- Most posters here are too opinionated or too poorly gifted with reasoning skills to differentiate between medical and recreational use.
- Nearly everyone isn't prepared to read and comment on the relevant research.
- Even the people that are capable of doing so probably have better ways to spend their time.
Time for this thread to die.
But if we killed every thead that had poor posts, there'd be nothing left to read.
I think I am capable of having an academic discussion on the topic. If you have some insight or evidence I do not, I would like to take a look at it.
Meursault
Organic Mechanic
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Your earlier post about medical use covered it better than I could. I'm not sure about the underlying assumption that regular THC use makes people non-productive, but I can't counter it.
And to address the OP's case, using THC to treat any disorder in relatively young patients seems like a bad idea. The risk of long-term psychological side effects is, I believe, less after adolescence, and when we have other, better-understood medications for ADHD, I don't see the benefit.
Now that I'm writing this, I realize that I forgot a point:
- The entire issue is pretty far from EMS-relevant
Whats the difference between MJ then any other medication? The stigma, if its an accepted mode treatment I dont have a problem, is it any different from me popping a couple vicoden because of back pain. (nobody does that right 
)
I cant take them at work because they have a potential to incapacitate me and he shouldnt be smoking it at work because of its potential.
I have read some studies, whether I agree with them or not some in the medical field believe its beneficial. It may be, I just dont have enough information to know either way. I think the stigma attached to it, could be its biggest downfall but just dismissing it because we may not agree isnt a well thought out option.
And there are side effects to every medication those should be weighed against the benefits.
Its not like he is smoking a bag a day wearing a tie dye shirt and listening to Peter, Paul and Mary on his eight track in his volkswagon van. :unsure:
At least I hope.
) I cant take them at work because they have a potential to incapacitate me and he shouldnt be smoking it at work because of its potential.
I have read some studies, whether I agree with them or not some in the medical field believe its beneficial. It may be, I just dont have enough information to know either way. I think the stigma attached to it, could be its biggest downfall but just dismissing it because we may not agree isnt a well thought out option.
And there are side effects to every medication those should be weighed against the benefits.
Its not like he is smoking a bag a day wearing a tie dye shirt and listening to Peter, Paul and Mary on his eight track in his volkswagon van. :unsure:
At least I hope.
I guess I could have better said that it can move people into a consumer role, or at the very minimum severely restrict their productive capabilities.
In 2010 America, the use of THC rules out any kind of public service, professional sports, machinery operation, most healthcare, or high value technical skills. (like aviation) You will probably only be able to make 1 financial industry mistake as well if somebody discovers your usage. (Would you let your banker work with your money while taking a hallucinogenic medication?)
I guess if you are looking for a skilled trade, that could be productive providing you never had to file a workman's comp claim. You would also need some very liberal insurance for your work. Arts and entertainment would be open, but there seems to be a very limited amount of those positions that pay a livable wage. Food service might work out, but there is not a lot of well paying positions there either.
You might be able to get away with an academic job, particularly in teaching, but I still think it severely limits a person's options.
As we agree, there are better options available.
I also think EMS providers should be healthcare professionals and as such capable of discussing any part of healthcare. (I know I ask a lot)
"To whom much is given, much is expected."
don't know who said it, but it sounds smart.
You pose a fair question, I hope you find this a fair response
I would say the major difference is the mechanism of action. Vicodin, blocking COX and specific receptors to reduce pain (a response to injurious stimuli) is significantly different than Cannibiods (synthetic or natural) whose primary action is to induce altered perceptual states and inhibit neuroregulatory transmission. (it turns off the brakes in your brain which is why it is classified as a hallucinogen)
The maximum effect/time is also considerably different. The peak effect of THC is in 20 minutes, with dwindling effects lasting up to 4 hours compared with peak 3-4 hours for hydrocodone. However the COX effects of acetaminophen can last up to 8 hours. So pain is controlled in a way similar to a bolus and maintenance with vicodin. Depending on the pharmacokinetics in your body as well as the dose, you may need less of the vicodin less often. The side effects of vicodin are does dependant, the side effects of THC are cumulative and may not revert upon stopping the medication. If you lose opioid receptors you could live with that. Living without GABA stimulation is considerably more debilitating.
Also compare the Dx.(pain med vs. psych med) If you remove a painful stimulus, nociceptive pain goes away. When you take somebody off of a psych med, they usually revert to the premedicated state. THC is suggested prescribed at 4 hour intervals. (That sort of calls into question the idea THC can be used as needed doesn’t it?) You could theoretically use it a short time hoping to achieve a level of permanent "damage" which allows normal function. That would be a gamble.
In cancer patients, THC is used to reduce the side effects of Chemotherapeutics. They likely will need opioid pain control as well. The THC is not the one drug solution unless your only goal is to reduce effects of chemo in a cancer pt. A reasonable possibility if you want a person to have some function and not just sedate them to coma. In AIDS patients THC is to stimulate hunger centers, to prevent the anorexia and the body reverting to catabolism.
How do you remove the stimulus of pathological neuro transmission without removing the pathology (aka the brain)? Which means you will constantly need a therapeutic level of THC in your body to achieve a more normalized function when taking it for ADD/ADHD or other psych dx.
It seems reasonable to me you could assure your employer you wouldn’t take a debilitating pain medication shortly prior or at work. How do you tell your employer you’re not going to take your psych meds prior to or at work? (Sounds silly doesn’t it?)
I don't doubt there can be benefits from THC. There are benefits from Barbiturates, but we are extremely selective on who receives those based on the effects and benefits. I doubt you will find a reputable physician who will prescribe them for sleep disorders at this point in time.
Whats the difference between MJ then any other medication? The stigma, if its an accepted mode treatment I dont have a problem, is it any different from me popping a couple vicoden because of back pain. (nobody does that right
I cant take them at work because they have a potential to incapacitate me and he shouldnt be smoking it at work because of its potential.
I would say the major difference is the mechanism of action. Vicodin, blocking COX and specific receptors to reduce pain (a response to injurious stimuli) is significantly different than Cannibiods (synthetic or natural) whose primary action is to induce altered perceptual states and inhibit neuroregulatory transmission. (it turns off the brakes in your brain which is why it is classified as a hallucinogen)
The maximum effect/time is also considerably different. The peak effect of THC is in 20 minutes, with dwindling effects lasting up to 4 hours compared with peak 3-4 hours for hydrocodone. However the COX effects of acetaminophen can last up to 8 hours. So pain is controlled in a way similar to a bolus and maintenance with vicodin. Depending on the pharmacokinetics in your body as well as the dose, you may need less of the vicodin less often. The side effects of vicodin are does dependant, the side effects of THC are cumulative and may not revert upon stopping the medication. If you lose opioid receptors you could live with that. Living without GABA stimulation is considerably more debilitating.
Also compare the Dx.(pain med vs. psych med) If you remove a painful stimulus, nociceptive pain goes away. When you take somebody off of a psych med, they usually revert to the premedicated state. THC is suggested prescribed at 4 hour intervals. (That sort of calls into question the idea THC can be used as needed doesn’t it?) You could theoretically use it a short time hoping to achieve a level of permanent "damage" which allows normal function. That would be a gamble.
In cancer patients, THC is used to reduce the side effects of Chemotherapeutics. They likely will need opioid pain control as well. The THC is not the one drug solution unless your only goal is to reduce effects of chemo in a cancer pt. A reasonable possibility if you want a person to have some function and not just sedate them to coma. In AIDS patients THC is to stimulate hunger centers, to prevent the anorexia and the body reverting to catabolism.
How do you remove the stimulus of pathological neuro transmission without removing the pathology (aka the brain)? Which means you will constantly need a therapeutic level of THC in your body to achieve a more normalized function when taking it for ADD/ADHD or other psych dx.
It seems reasonable to me you could assure your employer you wouldn’t take a debilitating pain medication shortly prior or at work. How do you tell your employer you’re not going to take your psych meds prior to or at work? (Sounds silly doesn’t it?)
I don't doubt there can be benefits from THC. There are benefits from Barbiturates, but we are extremely selective on who receives those based on the effects and benefits. I doubt you will find a reputable physician who will prescribe them for sleep disorders at this point in time.
mycrofft
Still crazy but elsewhere
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OP, use your search engine.
This horse has been shot stabbed poisoned drug hanged keelhauled defenestrated coup-de-graced strangled and lethally injected.
To death.
This horse has been shot stabbed poisoned drug hanged keelhauled defenestrated coup-de-graced strangled and lethally injected.
To death.
You respond to the scene, evaluate and take accurate vitals but the horse can't fit on the gurney what do you do?!
Shishkabob
Forum Chief
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Marijuana use is harmless, especially when compared to alcohol or some of the prescription "meds" commonly doled out by neighborhood docs doing their best to keep Big Pharma rolling in the cash. In my misspent youth I consumed marijuana frequently and never had any probs of any sort - but all that being said - no way on earth would I use it now! What if I'm driving an ambulance and get T-Boned and they (per regs) test my blood? Suddenly the accident is my fault and I'm prob going to jail. It's not worth the risk and liability.
What's funny in this thread is the amount of paramedics (who should know better) who consider marijuana a dangerous drug. It's ridiculous.
What's funny in this thread is the amount of paramedics (who should know better) who consider marijuana a dangerous drug. It's ridiculous.
Shishkabob
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Did you read ANY of the replies in here?
Or did you just want to push your pro-MJ beliefs with nothing more than "It isnt bad, they just say it is"
Or did you just want to push your pro-MJ beliefs with nothing more than "It isnt bad, they just say it is"
Yeah, did you?
Had you not been consuming marijuana frequently would your youth have been "misspent"? Would you have made better decisions if the marijuana did not have an influence on you?
Any drug can be dangerous when used for the wrong reasons or in doses not prescribed or monitored. The fact that there are warnings listed with medicinal marijuana when it is dispensed, especially when it comes to operating machinery and critical decision making processes would lead on to think more closely about their actions prior to consumption. Those in the medical professions can also be under serious scrutiny for any medication they might take that can alter one's abilities to perform their job safely.
I am all for medicinal marijuana for the appropriate applications and provided the patient is adequately monitored. However, for those who are not suffering from the commonly listed uses, at what point is it considered a medical necessity or one that the patient perceives to be a necessity out of dependency issues?
When a patient who has become addicted to massive amounts of pain killers to where it exceeds normal doses, if the person is in health care, they are normally asked to take a medical leave. During that time they are sent to a pain management specialist to determine what part is actually associated with pain and how much is due to a dependency issue. Different techniques and medications are then explored to get the patient back into the workforce with acceptable medication levels.
I would recommend the OP hook up with a clinic that can determine if there is more appropriate treatment or become part of an official study. Until then, he may have to rethink his career in EMS.
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Shishkabob
Forum Chief
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That was a turn of phrase - my youth was no more disorderly than any other.
The point is; should the screening process and the cautions given to the patient about possible lifestyle and career changes be any different for an EMT? When "responsible" physicians prescribe medicinal marijuana, they do screen their patients and advise them not to work in any field to where safety for themselves or others might be a concern.
Please if you would share with me what published sources you based your conclusions from. I am sure we could all submit competing anecdotes.
I also like to think I have some idea about pharmacology. I have posted at length the indications and actions of THC as well as many considerations in its prescription. Laudanum was once available without a prescription and used commonly. Was it also harmless compared to some of the "snake oils" also available at the time?
How often does this happen in reality? Everyone knows their are docs who will write script for xanax, etc. at the drop of a hat...Why should we think "medical marijauna" is any diff?
Shishkabob
Forum Chief
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So that makes it right?