Hartmanns Vs NS - Fluid Resus

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I've not actually got the new guidelines for our state ambulance service yet, but I've read on an associated website that NS has replaced Harmanns/Compound Sodium Lactate (MelbMICA or any others from melbourne...is this true?)

Also, I was told by one of the people on the peer review board for the JEPHC that fluid resus is a 'specific area of interest for the journal' (READ: write about it if you wanna boost your academic street cred) at the moment.

I can honestly say I know bugger all about the issue and it seems like a pretty important issue, so I have a couple questions.

Why the change to NS? Why the interest from the journal? Can you point me in the direction of the literature that might be responsible for the change in direction?

More generally, can someone give me a rundown of the issues in fluid resus (in trauma specifically because I think that's what the guidelines were for, but I'm interested in learning more about it in all regards).
1. What are the options for fluid resus?
2. What are the current debates.
3. What are the arguments for against, (and what are people for and against)
4. >>>Can someone point me towards literature on the matter.<<<
 
The literature is absolutely bulging with articles on fluid resus. A good pplace to start is the Cochrane Database and the Cochrane Prehospital Field.

On my way to work, will post more later.
 
Ns

Correct - Normal Saline has replaced Hartmanns in all ambulances in at least Melbourne.

MM
 
Fluids

In order to understand why certain fluids are used or have been tried in "fluid resus" or "fluid filling" you have to have a grasp of how fluid compartments operate within the body and how fluids are moved between those compartments, between cells and other structures/tissues. When you do this you will then see how solutes affect these fluid movements and compartmentalisations. (gees that word has lot of letters!!).

This leads to the theories behind (the many different) fluid choices over the years. Funnily enough we are back at ground zero with good old fashioned normal saline.

So the best place to start is in fact and A&P text. Given the the human body is about 70% water you will find the subject fascinating. You may think twice the next time you load up dinner with extra salt!!!

MM
 
Yeah I understand the fluid movements and electrolyte/solutes movements to some extent, I have some understanding of the purpose. Mosby's Paramedic textbook (which is spectacularly good are talking a lot without saying much), Martini A&P, and my pathophysiology text (which is a top notch book in most regards) haven't really been much more help than that.

I should have been more clear. I don't really know nothing. My problem is that these books do little more than list methods and solutions/colloids as well as to discuss the theory of solutes and movements of molecules (It was in yr9 science, yr 10 science and yrs 11&12 Bio and Chem, 1st yr Uni Bio, I get it). They don't say a great deal about the efficacy of different types and in different situations. If, for example, I wanted to understand the evidence base for AV switching from Hartmann's to NS, they are completely useless. I want to understand the fluid resus landscape as it stands today, what the current evidence based thinking is and how it came to be.

Google has had a few things to say on the matter, albumin is apparently not much more useful in improving trauma mortality than NS apparently. I did a Cochrane library search with various criteria to no avail. I can just keep going through all the academic databases, but I wanted a pointer to the important papers, the outdated ideas and how the whole subject has evolved - so I could put the 12 million articles, that I will no doubt find when I open up Medline/OVID, into some kind of perspective.
 
Ok

OK. Here is one I always seem to remember. Maddox and Pepe etal 1994 Pre-Hospital fluid Resuscitation in Penetrating Truncal trauma.

McSwain is another author who wrote a lot of papers on trauma and fluid resus and also on MAST suits - which MICA in Melbourne use to carry and use for lots of things. Trauma, AAA and others. Now we don't use them.

Whilst the findings of the MAddox and Pepe paper were equivocal they were still statistically significant. The penultimate finding of the study was pt's with penetrating truncal trauma fared far worse (died generally) when given fluids pre-hospital than those who did not get it.

Ever wondered why we don't give fluids to penetrating chest trauma now? This was the landmark paper that set the stage for a change in thinking on that particular issue. Yet it did not prove cause and effect - it was yet another correlation study - typical in medicine.

As you have said there are many papers on the subject.

I hope the above paper and famous author (McSwain) will lead to some others.

MM
 
OK. Here is one I always seem to remember. Maddox and Pepe etal 1994 Pre-Hospital fluid Resuscitation in Penetrating Truncal trauma.

McSwain is another author who wrote a lot of papers on trauma and fluid resus and also on MAST suits - which MICA in Melbourne use to carry and use for lots of things. Trauma, AAA and others. Now we don't use them.

Whilst the findings of the MAddox and Pepe paper were equivocal they were still statistically significant. The penultimate finding of the study was pt's with penetrating truncal trauma fared far worse (died generally) when given fluids pre-hospital than those who did not get it.

Ever wondered why we don't give fluids to penetrating chest trauma now? This was the landmark paper that set the stage for a change in thinking on that particular issue. Yet it did not prove cause and effect - it was yet another correlation study - typical in medicine.

As you have said there are many papers on the subject.

I hope the above paper and famous author (McSwain) will lead to some others.

MM

Yeah cheers, that's the sort of thing I mean. Thanks, mate. We've talked informally about fluid admin in chest trauma and it has been mentioned once or twice that its a no no.
 
Its a big topic, (like most in medicine) and has always been controversial if for no other reason than the trauma patient can be very complex with multiple problems involved - eg cardiovascular, respiratory and neurological compromise all in one basket at the same time. There is no blanket therapy after all. At most we have been "propping" up trauma patients so they survive long enough to make it to definitive care - typically the surgeons knife.

Treatments like decompression may resolve immediate life threat whilst others like RSI are getting at more specific problems such as ICP control. All this revolves around quality study and research findings and this is where the rub lies. There have been few if any definitive studies on EMS trauma resus with unequivocal findings to point the way. Therein lies the problem.

On a closing note the switch to normal saline came about for two reasons, incompatable dilution issues with other MICA drugs and cost issues as there are no proven benefits for the other (more expensive) fluids like Hartmanns etc. A pretty common theme for EMS - economics meets practicality and evidence based research.

I'll see if I can hunt out some other important studies. Just remember though - and I'm sure you're aware - part of growing in this business is refining and developing your research skills - weaving through the maize of studies to find exactly what you want is part and parcel of the effort. There is no way around it. And school science as a (part) knowledge base just doesn't cut it I'm afraid.

Mm
 
On a closing note the switch to normal saline came about for two reasons...

Cheers. Very interesting.

I'll see if I can hunt out some other important studies. Just remember though - and I'm sure you're aware - part of growing in this business is refining and developing your research skills - weaving through the maize of studies to find exactly what you want is part and parcel of the effort. There is no way around it. And school science as a (part) knowledge base just doesn't cut it I'm afraid.

I do realize that I have to do my own research and I do; as it stands I have a folder in my trauma directory with about 20 recent papers on fluid resus. Generally, I have a list of relevant journals that I peruse regularly as well as saved searches with email alerts for various databases. The JEPHC has some good articles reviewing and pointing to good resources. Journal watch EM certainly has some great resources on the higher end of the scale. The cochrane prehospital field is still getting going, but hopefully will prove useful in the future. With that I feel I have a pretty solid base on top of which to do specific research, but the problem is with all that information, it can difficult to sort through it and judge it's importance. This is where the guiding hand of experience comes in handy, hence my questions.

Also, regardless of the the amount of literature you read, it's very hard for an undergrad to gauge the state of the art, or the academic environment with which the articles should be contextualized. The effect that particular papers have had on the field, is a good example. Which are more important than the others, which are taken more seriously, how they have changed thinking, to what extent they have changed thinking and how long it took. Also things like "Oh don't take to much notice of Dr. John Doe's papers, he's been implicated in varying degrees of plagiarism and minor research fraud for years". All of that is next to impossible without the wisdom and benefit of experience in the field.

Does AV facilitate journal access for it's employees? I realize there are plenty of free resources but the best ones cost money, and uni pays for that access. Does it continue into employment in some way?

EDIT: Bickell WH, Wall MJ, Pepe PE, et al, "Immediate versus delayed fluid resuscitation for hypotensive patients with penetrating torso injury." N Engl J Med, 331:1105-1109, October 1994. Was this the article you were talking about? It's the closest one I can find.
 
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Studies

This is where the guiding hand of experience comes in handy, hence my questions.

I may have a few years on the road but I can make no claim to being a good researcher regardless of my on-road experience. I have read plenty of papers but I can't honestly say I have dug into the archives in a while to find them myself. Fortunately there a plenty of MICA types who are good researchers and have seen fit to share their efforts around the branches.


Also, regardless of the the amount of literature you read, it's very hard for an undergrad to gauge the state of the art, or the academic environment with which the articles should be contextualized. The effect that particular papers have had on the field, is a good example. Which are more important than the others, which are taken more seriously, how they have changed thinking, to what extent they have changed thinking and how long it took.

In pre-hospital (actual work in service) it is no easier to gauge prevailing consensus if in fact there is one on any given subject. This has always been part of the problem. Papers say one thing but front up to an Ed and more often than not you will see ED types doing one thing, ICU types going a different track and surgeons locked into their own habitat. It's certainly my experience to see aggressive fluid resus on trauma pts from ED docs often in situations where I believed the evidence said to do something else.

The reality is you do your update days at school and absorb the attached rationales and facts. When a new guideline is introduced it often also comes with background referencing but you have enough on your plate just digesting and memorising the new guideline and using it as well as reading all the attached notes and explanations. It doesn't mean you just parrot your practice to the cookbook recipe of the CPG but time constraints and other priorities demand your attention as well.

All of that is next to impossible without the wisdom and benefit of experience in the field.

It's not so clear cut. I have to follow the guidelines that have been established by our medical directors after their own interpretation and consensus on the evidence. But even this can vary from service to service, state to state. There are some general agreements and fluids in penetrating trauma is not a bad example. Even then however the ED docs at trauma centres like the Alfred will still infuse volume expander's supplemented by blood products for such patients whilst the surgeons/anesthetists will pour in Aramine for BP management on the table during ops despite this being a serious no-no in the field (based on pre-hospital evidence). Qualification comes in when you consider the component of the health system where such approaches apply. Certain studies may well look at ED management of problems and have no regard for the pre-hospital component. Other studies again may seem to be directed toward pre-hospital but look at outcomes or findings after the interventions of the ED, surgical and ICU areas with just the starting point of pre-hospital considered. So the study may not be relevant to evidence that will change pre-hospital practice.

The point is I guess when looking for the studies isolate those that deal specifically with EMS practice and outcomes to the door of the ED from those that mix everybody's input into an outcome on discharge. Alternately studies, like our RSI trial, were designed to show that a discharge outcome changed when only the pre-hospital component of management was altered in a very specific patient cohort. The ED's and ICU's etc tackled the Pt's the same way they always do but we inducted a tube and paralysed or did just the basics. There was one or the other. Randomised, double blinded, controlled trials.

The study design and choice of outcome was specifically intended to isolate and validate only the pre-hospital component.

In this case a very surprising revelation was demonstrated. RSI in these pt groups clearly made a difference to outcome in (using reliable and established study methodology) and in real terms. This was all the more surprising since their had been prior trials that produced a converse result - eg San Diego 1994 and Seattle in about 2002 ( I think).

Does AV facilitate journal access for it's employees? I realize there are plenty of free resources but the best ones cost money, and uni pays for that access. Does it continue into employment in some way?

To be honest I'm not sure. I'll check for you. (goes to show how much direct research I have done myself recently).

EDIT: Bickell WH, Wall MJ, Pepe PE, et al, "Immediate versus delayed fluid resuscitation for hypotensive patients with penetrating torso injury." N Engl J Med, 331:1105-1109, October 1994. Was this the article you were talking about? It's the closest one I can find.

Unless I'm mistaken you are spot on. See you are better at researching than you thought you were.

I don't know if I have been any help. I'll ask around and dig up some studies for you. I'll see if I can narrow down some of your specific questions a little better. Anyway two hours late home tonight after a pt threw about five different rhythms in the space of fifteen minutes. Finally a real MICA job!!!!
(He got better by the way)

Cheers
MM
 
In pre-hospital (actual work in service) it is no easier to gauge prevailing consensus if in fact there is one on any given subject. This has always been part of the problem. Papers say one thing but front up to an Ed and more often than not you will see ED types doing one thing, ICU types going a different track and surgeons locked into their own habitat. It's certainly my experience to see aggressive fluid resus on trauma pts from ED docs often in situations where I believed the evidence said to do something else.

That's really interesting. It never occurred to me, but it makes sense. It's funny that this has come up because I've been throwing around ideas for an article for uni after talking to VENT about how RTs managed to move so quickly towards professionalism, while medics seemed incapable of doing the same. This adds a new area of interest for me. Something to do with peer driven motivation working better with larger peer groups, one of my lecturers is really into group dynamics and the effect on continuing education...I think I'll have a chat to him about it, see if there's anything to be learnt on that front.

The reality is you do your update days at school and absorb the attached rationales and facts. When a new guideline is introduced it often also comes with background referencing but you have enough on your plate just digesting and memorising the new guideline and using it as well as reading all the attached notes and explanations. It doesn't mean you just parrot your practice to the cookbook recipe of the CPG but time constraints and other priorities demand your attention as well.

Yeah I can see that being true. That's one of the nice things about our uni education is that hopefully that aspect will be a bit easier given the much larger body of theory that we start with....hopefully :unsure:


Even then however the ED docs at trauma centres like the Alfred will still infuse volume expander's supplemented by blood products for such patients whilst the surgeons/anesthetists will pour in Aramine for BP management on the table during ops despite this being a serious no-no in the field (based on pre-hospital evidence). Qualification comes in when you consider the component of the health system where such approaches apply.

My understanding of that was that part of it is to do with how long before surgery the fluids go in, and about the use of certain drugs without relevant monitoring or imaging techniques, like arterial BP, ICP probes, CT/MRI etc. The balance between truly taking the ED/ICU to the patient with what realistically can and should be done in the back of an ambulance continues to intrigue and frustrate me.

I'm not surprised MICA proved they could use complex and dangerous treatment modalities that American EMS failed too, but I am a little surprised about Seattle. I hear good things about EMS there.

I don't know if I have been any help. I'll ask around and dig up some studies for you. I'll see if I can narrow down some of your specific questions a little better. Anyway two hours late home tonight after a pt threw about five different rhythms in the space of fifteen minutes. Finally a real MICA job!!!!
(He got better by the way)

That article you put me on to did turn out to be a very important. Luckily it was published in the NEJM which conveniently provides links to all the articles that references it. I followed the bouncing ball, and that lead to the 20 articles I mentioned. I followed more bouncing balls (there were rather a lot of them), cut down the 20 to the important ones, added more, and now have thirty of (from what I can tell) the most important articles on the topic, as well as finding some interesting articles like one on prehospital fibrinolysis for suspected PEs. At the very least I am significantly better informed than I was, so thank you for taking the time to help me. As always, it is very much appreciated.
 
you're welcome

Always glad to be of help. I think it is true to say sifting and collating research data from studies is the easy part. (I know it doesn't seem like it).

The hard part is meaningful interpretation.

MM
 
New to this forum but thought I might add my two cents worth.

My understanding is another benefit of AV moving away from Hartmanns to N/S is the contraindication that exists when administering ceftriaxone.

There is at least a theoretical reaction between calcium and ceftriaxone where it can cause crystals to form in the kidney leading to renal failure- more so in neonatal administration. We had a bulletin come out warning of this around the same time N/S was proposed.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/559375
 
Hey VIC,
Welcome to the forum. Makes sense. AV might do well to send these type of memos to students as well.
 
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