Adenosine Question

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EMSrush

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Hey guys-
I have a question that I'd love to get some feedback on...

I worked with a preceptor who told me that he had a PT several years ago whom, after receiving Adenosine, went into asystole and never came out of it. The preceptor explained that the PT was throwing PVC's (>25/min) with an underlying NSR. He further explained that, "...when I gave the Adenosine, I took away his ventricles, which was all that the PT had left...".

I'm not sure if I agree with this explanation. His treatment that he administered doesn't necessarily sound like it was inappropriate to me...? Anyone??
 
EMSrush said:
Hey guys-
I have a question that I'd love to get some feedback on...

I worked with a preceptor who told me that he had a PT several years ago whom, after receiving Adenosine, went into asystole and never came out of it. The preceptor explained that the PT was throwing PVC's (>25/min) with an underlying NSR. He further explained that, "...when I gave the Adenosine, I took away his ventricles, which was all that the PT had left...".

I'm not sure if I agree with this explanation. His treatment that he administered doesn't necessarily sound like it was inappropriate to me...? Anyone??
Click to expand...

:blink: That's about all I have to say for your preceptor.

1. Adenosine does not work on the ventricles.
2. Adenosine isn't indicated for PVC's
3. Asystole is a side effect of adenosine.
4. If the pt. is in NSR with PVC's, the ventricles are not all the pt. has left.
 
Either you heard wrong, or.....Stay far far away from that medic.....
 
Note: I'm so sorry... I had been reading a bunch of different forums, and I wrote "Adenosine" instead of "Lidocaine". First thread response helped me realize my mistake. Big difference, sorry about that... Will edit original post. LOL.

Hey guys-
I have a question that I'd love to get some feedback on...

I worked with a preceptor who told me that he had a PT several years ago whom, after receiving Lidocaine, went into asystole and never came out of it. The preceptor explained that the PT was throwing PVC's (>25/min) with an underlying NSR. He further explained that, "...when I gave the Lidocaine, I took away his ventricles, which was all that the PT had left...".

I'm not sure if I agree with this explanation. His treatment that he administered doesn't necessarily sound like it was inappropriate to me...? Anyone??
 
EMSrush said:
Note: I'm so sorry... I had been reading a bunch of different forums, and I wrote "Adenosine" instead of "Lidocaine". First thread response helped me realize my mistake. Big difference, sorry about that... Will edit original post. LOL.

Hey guys-
I have a question that I'd love to get some feedback on...

I worked with a preceptor who told me that he had a PT several years ago whom, after receiving Lidocaine, went into asystole and never came out of it. The preceptor explained that the PT was throwing PVC's (>25/min) with an underlying NSR. He further explained that, "...when I gave the Lidocaine, I took away his ventricles, which was all that the PT had left...".

I'm not sure if I agree with this explanation. His treatment that he administered doesn't necessarily sound like it was inappropriate to me...? Anyone??
Click to expand...

1. Lidocaine does work on the ventricles
2. Lidocaine is indicated for PVC's (although they are pushing away from giving it except in severe cases according to my understanding)
3. If the pt. is in NSR with PVC's, the ventricles are not all the pt. has left.
4. Can't make a determination without seeing the pt. or lots more information.
 
We no longer carry Lidocaine, but when we did the question came back to how "bad" the PVCs were.

If the logic was that the lidocaine will slow other impulses to match the PVCs, then were we really helping a sick heart?

With so much new focus on testing these interventions we've relied on, we're finding more and more that many of our medications have little, if any, effect.

I nearly spit out my coffee on that first post though! Adenosine for PVCs...I thought it was a trick question at first.
 
the Happy Medic said:
We no longer carry Lidocaine, but when we did the question came back to how "bad" the PVCs were.

If the logic was that the lidocaine will slow other impulses to match the PVCs, then were we really helping a sick heart?

With so much new focus on testing these interventions we've relied on, we're finding more and more that many of our medications have little, if any, effect.

I nearly spit out my coffee on that first post though! Adenosine for PVCs...I thought it was a trick question at first.
Click to expand...

Ha... I felt pretty silly myself when I re-read my original posting. I know school has taken a bit of a toll on me, but geez! :glare:

As a newbie, if it had been my call, it would have been hard for me to gauge how "bad" the PVC's were.. but I would probably look to see if the PT is symptomatic, rather than rely on frequency. The service I did my ride outs with does still carry Lido... I didn't realize it was being phased out in other regions. I knew Amiodarone was starting to be pushed a bit more, but didn't realize Lido was being phased out.
 
I have heard of a similar case. The pt was in bijeminy at around 60, including the PVCs (they were perfusing). When they gave him lidocaine the PVCs stopped but the sinus rate stayed the same (30), and then they had to treat him for unstable bradycardia. He didn't code, but they made him a lot worse.
 
It used to be trendy to treat PVCs. Then we realized that we weren't helping anyone and we were sometimes making people worse. In some areas it's even a touch controversial as to whether we should even be using amiodarone in conscious VT in the field. The thinking is, if it is unstable, cardiovert it, if it isn't, take it to hospital.

I think TomB could probably add more to that discussion than I could though.
 
Those wide complexes were probably ventricular escape beats, not PVCs (there was likely nothing premature about them). Yes, lidocaine would be bad in that situation.
 
mgr22 said:
Those wide complexes were probably ventricular escape beats, not PVCs (there was likely nothing premature about them). Yes, lidocaine would be bad in that situation.
Click to expand...

Hmm... I had never even considered that. :unsure: And if they were indeed escape beats, that would not be something we would want to treat, because the heart needed that beat to maintain. And that might explain why his PT had the reaction that he did. Am I close...?
 
Treating well tolerated, non-life threatening arrythmias in the field is fraught with peril. Your best bet, outside of maybe adenosine for SVT is to let the guys with 3-4 years of residency plu 1-2 years of fellowship sort is all out.
 
EMSrush said:
Hmm... I had never even considered that. :unsure: And if they were indeed escape beats, that would not be something we would want to treat, because the heart needed that beat to maintain. And that might explain why his PT had the reaction that he did. Am I close...?
Click to expand...

You didn't say how symptomatic the patient was before the lido. If he/she had been perfusing well despite those PVCs, I'd be wondering why an antiarrhythmic was administered prehospitally.
 
I second usalyfyre.

A lot is missing from your description of events, most likely due to the vague recollection of events from your preceptor. But beating a dead horse to death... treating something that's there (ie. PVCs) but is ostensibly asymptomatic at the moment, is mind boggling.

Do you treat the ankle fx w/ gross deformity and (+)distal CMS with fentanyl 100 mcg, versed 2.5 mg and then attempt to realign the extremity?

Take your preceptors situation however, and add numerous syncopal events w/ generalized weakness and pallor; now what? Would any of you intervene? If so, with what?
 
mgr22 said:
You didn't say how symptomatic the patient was before the lido. If he/she had been perfusing well despite those PVCs, I'd be wondering why an antiarrhythmic was administered prehospitally.
Click to expand...

That was one of the first questions I asked my preceptor... and I didn't get much of a response. I didn't push the issue, but it definitely gave me something to chew on. -_-
 
EMSrush said:
Note: I'm so sorry... I had been reading a bunch of different forums, and I wrote "Adenosine" instead of "Lidocaine". First thread response helped me realize my mistake. Big difference, sorry about that... Will edit original post. LOL.

Hey guys-
I have a question that I'd love to get some feedback on...

I worked with a preceptor who told me that he had a PT several years ago whom, after receiving Lidocaine, went into asystole and never came out of it. The preceptor explained that the PT was throwing PVC's (>25/min) with an underlying NSR. He further explained that, "...when I gave the Lidocaine, I took away his ventricles, which was all that the PT had left...".

I'm not sure if I agree with this explanation. His treatment that he administered doesn't necessarily sound like it was inappropriate to me...? Anyone??
Click to expand...

Were they R on T PVC's? Maybe the asystole didnt have anything to do with the lido... Maybe the R on T pvc's threw the pt into a fine vfib? I know its a bit of a stretch, but I've never heard of lido causing asystole before... I guess you could have pushed like 100mL instead of 100mg (though I would be interested to know where you got that packaging from haha)

Which brings me to a point that I had... Alot of people on this thread said lido is more hurtful than helpful. What about for R on T PVC's?
 
Smash said:
It used to be trendy to treat PVCs.
Click to expand...

It used to be trendy to roll around in blue jumpsuits with "PARAMEDIC" on the back in yellow letters with lots of gold chains and an afro, drive a high top caddy with orange lights and struggle to carry in the Lifepak 4 and tacklebox full of drugs and glass IV bottles too ....
 
Sugi said:
Were they R on T PVC's? Maybe the asystole didnt have anything to do with the lido... Maybe the R on T pvc's threw the pt into a fine vfib? I know its a bit of a stretch, but I've never heard of lido causing asystole before... I guess you could have pushed like 100mL instead of 100mg (though I would be interested to know where you got that packaging from haha)

Which brings me to a point that I had... Alot of people on this thread said lido is more hurtful than helpful. What about for R on T PVC's?
Click to expand...

I wish I knew more about it the actual situation. He was a bit of a difficult preceptor, mainly because he'd get a bit crazy during some of the calls we went on. Stress, maybe? I don't know. I don't stress easily, as it's not my emergency or my style. :rolleyes:

As soon as I asked him to elaborate on the lido issue just a little bit, he seemed to shut down. I didn't want him to think I was being a smart ***, so I dropped it. My biggest concern was that he might have been treating something that the PT may have been tolerating quite well. But as a newbie, I knew better than to preach to a 30 year EMS veteran.
 
EMSrush said:
But as a newbie, I knew better than to preach to a 30 year EMS veteran.
Click to expand...

Incorrect. If you know (or think) he is doing something wrong you have the right to question him. Just because he did a two bit course thirty years ago and has one year of experience repeated thirty times does not mean he knows best.
 
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