Duty to retreat ?????? Now let me get this right , my partner's trapped in the back of the rig by a violent pcp'er we got from FD thinking we were safe and I'm supposed to retreat and leave him on his own till help arrives ?????? If so , I wouldn't want to be partnered with you on a bet ! I did not and will not ever leave a partner in danger because of legal or civil worries PERIOD ! Seems to me you're more concerned with political correctness if the scene goes south than protecting yourself and your partner . You're also obviously not reading the other posts or you'd realize the fact that you don't always know when a scene will go south on you , and PD will not always be there . Can you honestly look a partner's spouse or boyfriend/girlfriend in the eye and tell them you didn't fight back because you were worried about being sued ? Yes , in 8 years in the field , I did carry a knife for last ditch defense but it never was used for such , despite being in some pretty bad situations that we didn't and couldn't know were coming . A combination of God's grace , relying on my partner , martial arts training , and luck got us through without major injury to us or our pts , but push comes to shove , I'd rather live to tell the tale , than die in consideration of that poor bad guy .
Self Defense for EMS
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firecoins
IFT Puppet
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I don't understand why this is a difficult concept to understand.Maybe I haven't explained it. It has nothing to do with leaving someone else in danger.
You only use enough force to "allow" yourself to escape. You can use any amount of force that is justifiable. If your in the back of a moving rig, more force would be justified than on scene for the very reason that you can't simply jump out.
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jmaccauley
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It's not that you haven't persistantly pointed out your concerns about force and self protection. We also aren't naive about potential liability issues. Most of us are just a little more concerned with physically surviving and less concerned with possible negative perceptions. I still wonder how you can determine how much force is "minimal?"
DT4EMS
Kip Teitsort, Founder
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I have only talked to a couple of people over the years who have a "policy". Remember most agencies want to try and deny the problem exists.
Ask a group of EMS folks what is "reasonable" when it comes to a level of force and more often than not the O2 bottle comes up. That alone proves most folks don't talk about "reasonable" the same way others do.
These rules of engagement are what I went by as our company , as DT4EMS pointed out , didn't have a policy . This worked well for me and showed progression from talking the pt. down , to backing out if possible , to whatever force was necessary . Maybe I was lucky , but I never had to face the dreaded " L " word . Seems to me if you take a step - by - step approach ,and document well showing the progression , this should cover you legally . Hats off to DT4EMS for tackling this problem . It's about time someone did . My concern is for the newbys . There's so much controversy about this , when the need arises , they may become indecisive and get hurt in the process . Policies , procedures , training and drills are needed .
Craig
jmaccauley
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The only problem I have is with the "least amount of force necessary" step. It may only be symantics but if you start low and see if it works, you are gambling with your safety. You may be thinking that something might work and get him away from me. Then you discover that it was ineffective so you escalate your response. You won't get many chances to find "the minimal amount needed. I would suggest going above what you think is "minimal" and as you suggested, be prepared to justify it.
In law enforcement, we have followed a force continuum for years. Recently though, many departments began to go away from that "trial and error" method to using any of their training and tools based on the totality of the circumstances. That simply means based on your training, experience, tools available and perception of the threat you face. This is much easier to defend than having written guidelines that may have to be abandoned under stress.
In law enforcement, we have followed a force continuum for years. Recently though, many departments began to go away from that "trial and error" method to using any of their training and tools based on the totality of the circumstances. That simply means based on your training, experience, tools available and perception of the threat you face. This is much easier to defend than having written guidelines that may have to be abandoned under stress.
ryahic
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in most training for our field and experince we see on the street...your senses should tell you not to got into the scene. if it sounds remotely vague, get police in there first. where i work we stage for alot of events until police secure the scene - you can`t help anybody if your hurt. why would i carry a weapon if i have police to do it for me. plus do you know how much paperwork police fill out for drawing a weapon....we have enough as is LOL
I agree. A weapon takes away from the task at hand and makes you seem like something your not. Cause it is ironic that someone carrying a weapon is helping people. Just seperate things.
Firefighters don't get weapons or batons or junk. They are just buff as hell.
Best solution: martial arts. Your body is a weapon that can be trained. If you can fit it in you schedule, it is healthy and will help in many ways.
Firefighters don't get weapons or batons or junk. They are just buff as hell.
Best solution: martial arts. Your body is a weapon that can be trained. If you can fit it in you schedule, it is healthy and will help in many ways.
jmaccauley
Forum Lieutenant
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If you think a firefighter doesn't carry weapons, you've never seen the equipment he/she has at their disposal.
jmaccauley
Forum Lieutenant
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By the way, do you think that you cannot help people if you are carrying a weapon?
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Yep. If I ever REALLY, REALLY, REALLY need a weapon, I can grab the
Halligan tool from the outside compartment... that would REALLY hurt.
CFRBryan347768
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Think
you do have weapons(not that i think they are necessary) scapal in the baby deliver kit(hah for got the real name) and for super buffs that have a big mag lite, those work as billy clubs and we also have cravats(triangular bandages) tie em up!
you do have weapons(not that i think they are necessary) scapal in the baby deliver kit(hah for got the real name) and for super buffs that have a big mag lite, those work as billy clubs and we also have cravats(triangular bandages) tie em up!
uscgk9
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This incident happened here a few months ago after 911 told us that Law Enforcement was not needed to secure the scene. Most of the time LEO is dispatched ahead of us and we stage until they clear the scene. It is not uncommon for 25-30 minutes to go by before a LEO can get on scene. Many nights our entire county is covered by only one deputy. Normal highway travel from north to south is approx 1 hour. Here is what happened....
INCIDENT SUMMARY
On February 4, 2008 at approximately 5:30 p.m. Oak Hall Rescue was paged out to a psychiatric call.
Two Accomack County Fire Medics (referred throughout as Fire Medic 1 / Fire Medic 2) responded in Unit 201 ambulance. The Fire Medics were told by the 911 Center that the Sheriff’s Office had been notified.
As they arrived on scene, the patient was outside of his residence and walking toward the ambulance. The EMS crew exited their vehicle and engaged the patient in conversation regarding the patient’s immediate needs and treatment.
Fire Medic 1 began to set-up for a blood pressure reading and at that same time the patient rushed forward and struck the Fire Medic I on the left side of the head with a closed fist. The initial blow caused a laceration above the Fire Medic’s left eye.
Fire Medic 2 then ran to an adjacent residence and called the 911 Center indicating an immediate need for law enforcement to respond. Fire Medic 1 dazed from the first impact was unable to defend himself and subsequently received several more blows to his head from the patient (now referred to as assailant).
Fire Medic I attempted to back away from the assailant and move toward his vehicle. During his retreat, Fire Medic 1 tripped over a rope that had been strung between two posts. Fire Medic I fell to the ground on his back and the assailant immediately took a position on top of Fire Medic 1 and continued to strike Fire Medic 1 about the head. Fire Medic 1 freed himself from the assailant by kicking the assailant off of him and sought refuge in EMS unit.
Once inside the vehicle, Fire Medic I secured the vehicle and prevented the assailant from entering the vehicle. The assailant then used an EMS bag left on scene to repeatedly strike the driver’s side window in an attempt to gain entry.
Fire Medic 2, while in an adjacent residence, placed 2 separate calls to the 911 Center requesting immediate law enforcement assistance. While in the residence, Fire Medic 2 explained what had just taken place involving the assailant and Fire Medic 1.
While gaining access to this residence, Fire Medic 2 explained to the male occupant what was transpiring. The male occupant then exited the home with a firearm to lend assistance to Fire Medic I.
Upon his return, the resident notified Fire Medic 2 that Fire Medic 1 was locked in the EMS vehicle and the assailant had entered his home. Fire Medic 2 then received a call from a friend who is also a Virginia State Police (VSP) Trooper. Fire Medic 2 apprised the trooper of the current situation. The trooper notified VSP dispatch to send any available trooper to respond to the scene. Fire units from NASA Wallops Flight Facility responded after monitoring the request for assistance.
INCIDENT SUMMARY
On February 4, 2008 at approximately 5:30 p.m. Oak Hall Rescue was paged out to a psychiatric call.
Two Accomack County Fire Medics (referred throughout as Fire Medic 1 / Fire Medic 2) responded in Unit 201 ambulance. The Fire Medics were told by the 911 Center that the Sheriff’s Office had been notified.
As they arrived on scene, the patient was outside of his residence and walking toward the ambulance. The EMS crew exited their vehicle and engaged the patient in conversation regarding the patient’s immediate needs and treatment.
Fire Medic 1 began to set-up for a blood pressure reading and at that same time the patient rushed forward and struck the Fire Medic I on the left side of the head with a closed fist. The initial blow caused a laceration above the Fire Medic’s left eye.
Fire Medic 2 then ran to an adjacent residence and called the 911 Center indicating an immediate need for law enforcement to respond. Fire Medic 1 dazed from the first impact was unable to defend himself and subsequently received several more blows to his head from the patient (now referred to as assailant).
Fire Medic I attempted to back away from the assailant and move toward his vehicle. During his retreat, Fire Medic 1 tripped over a rope that had been strung between two posts. Fire Medic I fell to the ground on his back and the assailant immediately took a position on top of Fire Medic 1 and continued to strike Fire Medic 1 about the head. Fire Medic 1 freed himself from the assailant by kicking the assailant off of him and sought refuge in EMS unit.
Once inside the vehicle, Fire Medic I secured the vehicle and prevented the assailant from entering the vehicle. The assailant then used an EMS bag left on scene to repeatedly strike the driver’s side window in an attempt to gain entry.
Fire Medic 2, while in an adjacent residence, placed 2 separate calls to the 911 Center requesting immediate law enforcement assistance. While in the residence, Fire Medic 2 explained what had just taken place involving the assailant and Fire Medic 1.
While gaining access to this residence, Fire Medic 2 explained to the male occupant what was transpiring. The male occupant then exited the home with a firearm to lend assistance to Fire Medic I.
Upon his return, the resident notified Fire Medic 2 that Fire Medic 1 was locked in the EMS vehicle and the assailant had entered his home. Fire Medic 2 then received a call from a friend who is also a Virginia State Police (VSP) Trooper. Fire Medic 2 apprised the trooper of the current situation. The trooper notified VSP dispatch to send any available trooper to respond to the scene. Fire units from NASA Wallops Flight Facility responded after monitoring the request for assistance.
you never , never , never , leave your partner in danger even to call for help . if you retreat , you do so as a team . If my partner left me to get the crap kicked out of me , I would have a major issue with him/her after the call , and you can bet I wouldn't work with them again .
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It all depends on the situation. I might well leave my partner to call for help... because if I can't handle the threat with what I have on my person, then the MOST helpful thing I can do is get someone who can help.... by getting on the radio and screaming for help.
Rule #1 is YOUR safety. If you die a hero, trying to protect your partner, you still die. This doesn't mean that you leave your partner, either. What I'm saying is that you should use "common" sense (which we know isn't really common at all) and not try to take on, for example, an armed subject, unless you are trained in such and feel you can do it safely.
BTW.... I like the part about the resident leaving the house with a firearm to "assist" the medic.
Rule #1 is YOUR safety. If you die a hero, trying to protect your partner, you still die. This doesn't mean that you leave your partner, either. What I'm saying is that you should use "common" sense (which we know isn't really common at all) and not try to take on, for example, an armed subject, unless you are trained in such and feel you can do it safely.
BTW.... I like the part about the resident leaving the house with a firearm to "assist" the medic.
jmaccauley
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Jon brings us back to the original point of this threat. Are there still folks who think that self defense training (with or without weapons) is unnecessary? Of course, preparing for what you might be getting into is natural for EMT's and medics. Why is there so much resistance to learning one additional life saving skill? Of course, not expecting the unexpected at a psych call is a little naive, but I understand that with manpower shortages, you make do with what you got. So, why not get more?
WuLabsWuTecH
Forum Deputy Chief
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i'm ok with bulletproof vest, but I think its ok for EMTs who work in those situations to have something for self defense if necessary. I think in our area they are known as tactical EMS.
And i agree with being known as NOT A COP. Its the same theory that some humaitarian groups will not even wear bulletproof vests. If you don't want us here, you can harass us and we will leave, but if you shoot us we will die, so just let us leave and live!
And i agree with being known as NOT A COP. Its the same theory that some humaitarian groups will not even wear bulletproof vests. If you don't want us here, you can harass us and we will leave, but if you shoot us we will die, so just let us leave and live!
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