Self Defense for EMS

[eggshen]

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/motivation.html

Here you go. If you have time you should cruise this site for a bit, it's pretty big but a lot of fun.

Our dpt provides a PPCT-Violent Patient Management course (mandatory actually). I have had more than one chance to use it and it seems OK, better than nothing at least. Of course I'll tell everyone right now that pain compliance is a waste of time on any type of sympathomimetic OD.

Egg

 

[firecoins]

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/motivation.html

Here you go. If you have time you should cruise this site for a bit, it's pretty big but a lot of fun.

Our dpt provides a PPCT-Violent Patient Management course (mandatory actually). I have had more than one chance to use it and it seems OK, better than nothing at least. Of course I'll tell everyone right now that pain compliance is a waste of time on any type of sympathomimetic OD.

Egg

I knew someone would post that guys site. Hes pretty good.

 

[firecoins]

pressure points work on pain compliance. If your altered mental status patient can no feel pain, won't do much good. I am sure you will find certain situations that they will be useful but not always.

joint locks are good if you are willing to take them to their real expected end, breaking the joint. If you train in BJJ or similair arts you hold the joint lock until your partner taps out due to pain. If you opponent can't feel pain, you may have to actually break the limb. Of course, there may be legal consequences to doing that but if you can get out enough to "retreat" and call for more help, I am sure it can be justified. Same with punching and kicking of any sort.

 

[TheDoll]

thank you certguy and eggshen for the info! i will check those things out!

 

[jmaccauley]

pressure points work on pain compliance. If your altered mental status patient can no feel pain, won't do much good. I am sure you will find certain situations that they will be useful but not always.

joint locks are good if you are willing to take them to their real expected end, breaking the joint. If you train in BJJ or similair arts you hold the joint lock until your partner taps out due to pain. If you opponent can't feel pain, you may have to actually break the limb. Of course, there may be legal consequences to doing that but if you can get out enough to "retreat" and call for more help, I am sure it can be justified. Same with punching and kicking of any sort.

I'm stilling wondering why you're in a business where you will very likely be assaulted at some point in your career. You really do seem to worry more about facing a legal challenge than saving your skin. Either you ar every naive or extremely paranoid about self defense. If that is the case, nothing anyone here says will matter to you. Next time you are threatened with violence, just take the beating and hope the bad guy gets tired before he kills you. At least you won't get in trouble.

 

[jmaccauley]

thank you certguy and eggshen for the info! i will check those things out!

While you are checking things out, go to dt4ems.net. It was custom made for your profession and actually takes the liability question into account, as well as practical options. I won't discount martial arts training, but from my experience, few people take the time and have the discpline to stay with it long enough for it to make you proficient.

 

[ffemt8978]

While you are checking things out, go to dt4ems.net. It was custom made for your profession and actually takes the liability question into account, as well as practical options. I won't discount martial arts training, but from my experience, few people take the time and have the discpline to stay with it long enough for it to make you proficient.

I agree with you.

There are several aspects of EMS providers using force against patients that are different from martial arts training, and Kip has addressed the most of them.

Legal - By teaching when the use of force is necessary, how to use the minimal force required to escape (more on this later), how to document and justify your actions to minimize your liability.

Medical - DT4EMS was developed under the guidance of a doctor with an eye towards minimizing the chance of seriously injuring a patient. How many other programs, including martial arts, can say this?

Technique - DT4EMS focuses on using the minimal force necessary to escape the situation. This is different from the law enforcement courses similar to PPCT where the focus is on gaining control of the subject. In addition, DT4EMS takes into consideration and teaches techniques using equipment that is available to EMS providers - such as using trauma shears as a weapon.

Mental - By being more aware of your situation, you can reduce the chances that you end up in an unsafe situation. Things like where you sit in the back of the ambulance in relation to your patient can greatly reduce your chance of being attacked/injured, and will at least buy you more time to escape.

(end shameless sales pitch)

 

[firecoins]

I'm stilling wondering why you're in a business where you will very likely be assaulted at some point in your career. You really do seem to worry more about facing a legal challenge than saving your skin. Either you ar every naive or extremely paranoid about self defense. If that is the case, nothing anyone here says will matter to you. Next time you are threatened with violence, just take the beating and hope the bad guy gets tired before he kills you. At least you won't get in trouble.

I am not in that business. Nor did I start the topic.

Various people have stated they are bring guns and knives on an ambulance to shoot and stab anyone who assaults them. That seems more paranoid to me. It seems very short sighted to me at best. If you are worried about being assaulted, you need to be prepared with not only defending yourself but the results of that. Especially if you think your going to shoot or stab someone in what you perceive to be a life threatening situation.

 

[certguy]

Hi Egg ,
There's nothing out there that's the ultimate technique out there to defend yourself with especially where drugs are involved . Against a pcp'er , the cops even have a hard time with guns , let alone empty handed for example . That's why I reccomend that folks who want to learn martial arts get a well rounded education . This gives you many more options to handle a situation with less force . In most cases , pressure points or joint locks work well and are justifiable . ( pt.'s out of control and you're using the least amount of force necessary ) If the situation escalates and you do have to get nasty , you can show a progression from least amount of force to what was necessary to handle the situation .

RULES OF ENGAGEMENT I'VE USED

1. Try to talk the person down .
2. Back out and wait for LEO if possible . If you back out , do it together , don't split your crew .
3. Use the least amount of force necessary to control the situation . Use your head , if a weapon's involved , time to get nasty if you can't get away .
4. Once an attacker's down and no longer a threat BACK OFF , don't continue unless you're using pain compliance to hold till help arrives .
5. DOCUMENT , DOCUMENT , DOCUMENT , including any witness statements .
6. Take a deep breath , RTB for uniform change , thank God for getting you and your partner through it okay .

 

[TheDoll]

While you are checking things out, go to dt4ems.net. It was custom made for your profession and actually takes the liability question into account, as well as practical options. I won't discount martial arts training, but from my experience, few people take the time and have the discpline to stay with it long enough for it to make you proficient.

you're absolutely right as far as checking out the dt4ems. i meant to mention that i was also looking through that, but upon rereading my posts, i realize i failed to do so! sorry!

 

[jmaccauley]

I am not in that business. Nor did I start the topic..

I must have misunderstood you then. I thought you were an EMT. You seem to have a cursery knowledge of PPCT and joint manipulation, however, you seem to be think that medics should not defend themselves, lest they be held criminally liable. However, directing readers to Marc McYoung's website (no nonesense self defense) seems perfectly logical to you. If you believe in his philosophy, which is very accurate incidentally, you would agree that self protection is your own responsibility.

 

[firecoins]

I must have misunderstood you then. I thought you were an EMT. You seem to have a cursery knowledge of PPCT and joint manipulation, however, you seem to be think that medics should not defend themselves, lest they be held criminally liable. However, directing readers to Marc McYoung's website (no nonesense self defense) seems perfectly logical to you. If you believe in his philosophy, which is very accurate incidentally, you would agree that self protection is your own responsibility.

Have you read his philosophy? I don't think you have. You haven't understood it. He very much addresses legal problem that are inherient to self defense. He addresses prevention. You seem to think, "oh Ill just stab a paitent and everyone will see my way" I don't think so.

I have no problem with unarmed self defense but the second you bring a gun or knife to this situation, your career in EMS is over. So many EMTs walking around with "rescue" knives which never seem to be used for just that. They seem to have the ulterior purpose of being for stabbing a violent patient.

Carrying a weapon is a huge responsibility that gets way overlooked. I think you will find EMTs/medic walking into scenes they would have never gone onto without such weapons. Than using the weapons and having prosecutors show that the EMT/medic should have never been there to begin with.

 

[jmaccauley]

Let's get past guns and knives for a minute. What other weapons would be acceptable for medics to have? Let's also assume that adequate training in the legal, moral and ethical decisions to protect yourself, and perhaps your patients, has been conducted.

 

[firecoins]

Let's get past guns and knives for a minute. What other weapons would be acceptable for medics to have? Let's also assume that adequate training in the legal, moral and ethical decisions to protect yourself, and perhaps your patients, has been conducted.

Weapons? Nothing designed as a weapon is acceptable. If one's life is truly in danger and I do mean truly, anything around them. O2 tanks, mag lights etc but their use is only acceptable to the point that you, your partner and possibly patient are able to escape from the dangerous individual. Than you must call for help. Any violent behavior done in self defense, armed or unarmed, done in excess of being able to escape can present a problem.

The goal is first not get into such a situation. If not possible than escape from a situation prior to violence being necessary. If that is not possible, to use a minimal amout of violence to either escape and call for help. After the use of any violence, you must be able to demonstrate you had no other options.

 

[Emt /b/]

I have no problem with unarmed self defense but the second you bring a gun or knife to this situation, your career in EMS is over.

My career in EMS would also be over if I got killed.

 

[jmaccauley]

This is actually becoming a silly discussion but I'm willing to carry it a little further. I'm not sure where you got your law degree (maybe in EMT class or the internet)but I'll explain about the laws of self defense that apply in most other jurisdictions.

The Supreme Court (you know those guys who monday morning quarterback everything we do) have clearly given public safety officials the right to defend themselves. As a matter of fact, when police departments tried to restrict the use of force to "minimal", this analogy was brought up: How much water does it take to put out a fire? The obvious answer is - as much as it takes. Isn't that what self defense is? Somehow we got into carrying guns and knives and basically just shooting our way out of danger. Nothing said by anyone here suggested that. If, however, you work in a violent area and are accustomed to dangerous scenes that you may have no control over, you might feel differently. Even working in a relatively quiet area you can be suddenly and violently attacked. Certainly there will be liability involved in any response, but it is easier to articulate your self defense choice if you survive the attack.

 

[firecoins]

I am sorry you think studying the legal implications are "silly". I got my "law degree" from having read the NYS law. I already posted 2 articles which articulate the difference betwen the law in 15 states and the other 35. NYS had a "duty to retreat" requirement. In FLorida you can "stand your ground" Hence what a Florida and NY EMTs can do for self defense may in fact be different.

If your worried about your safety and willing to think out which weapons or marital arts you will use in case your attacked, than you should further investigate the law surrounding such defense so that you are fully prepared beforehand. There is no sense in the "Id rather get tried by 12 than carried by 6" self defense theory when you can easily avoid either all together. Walk away alive, unscathed physically or legally and have no problems with your employer.

Deescalation, recognition of dangerous scenes well far an above what is taught in EMT class, more training in dealing with EDPs, addicts other potentially violent patients. There are whole bunch of things that we should be trained in to prevent being assaulted.

 

[ffemt8978]

I am sorry you think studying the legal implications are "silly". I got my "law degree" from having read the NYS law. I already posted 2 articles which articulate the difference betwen the law in 15 states and the other 35. NYS had a "duty to retreat" requirement. In FLorida you can "stand your ground" Hence what a Florida and NY EMTs can do for self defense may in fact be different.

Duty to Retreat laws state that you must retreat if possible, not in every situation. How do you retreat from the back of a moving ambulance when you have a violent patient intent on attacking you? You can't, at least for the first few minutes.

If your worried about your safety and willing to think out which weapons or marital arts you will use in case your attacked, than you should further investigate the law surrounding such defense so that you are fully prepared beforehand. There is no sense in the "Id rather get tried by 12 than carried by 6" self defense theory when you can easily avoid either all together. Walk away alive, unscathed physically or legally and have no problems with your employer.

Walking away is not always possible. Your statement about the 12 vs. 6 shows that you think you will always be able to talk your way out of every situation. That is not realistic, and it is irresponsible to think it is always possible. Yes, you should always try verbal descalation techniques first and non-force options first but sometimes it comes down to making a decision of whether or not you want to live through the encounter. Whose life is more important, yours or your attackers?

Deescalation, recognition of dangerous scenes well far an above what is taught in EMT class, more training in dealing with EDPs, addicts other potentially violent patients. There are whole bunch of things that we should be trained in to prevent being assaulted.

I agree with this statement with the caveat that we should also be trained in what to do when these techniques fail. Having worked in a hospital with a pysch ward, I can tell you that verbal techniques don't always work. I've seen a shrink get punched in the nose and choked by a patient. Ironically, this doctor believed as you do that every patient could be talked down and was more concerned about the liability of defending himself. Fortunately for him, the security department was realistic enough to realize that force was needed. Once we got the patient off of the doctor, he realized that sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

 

[jmaccauley]

Weapons? Nothing designed as a weapon is acceptable. If one's life is truly in danger and I do mean truly, anything around them. O2 tanks, mag lights etc but their use is only acceptable to the point that you, your partner and possibly patient are able to escape from the dangerous individual. Than you must call for help. Any violent behavior done in self defense, armed or unarmed, done in excess of being able to escape can present a problem.

The goal is first not get into such a situation. If not possible than escape from a situation prior to violence being necessary. If that is not possible, to use a minimal amout of violence to either escape and call for help. After the use of any violence, you must be able to demonstrate you had no other options.

O.K., so no weapons are acceptable in your opinion. As I suggested, training in the legal, moral and ethical obligations to both your patient and even your attacker should be mandatory. I also agree that there are legal consequences that we may face for our decisions. I also believe that most public service employees will prevail when the totality of the circumstances are addressed. As for the so-called "duty to retreat" laws you referred to, they apply to deadly force issues, not merely self defense. How do you retreat from an attacker who has a death grip on your throat? The articles that you have researched did not address the ability and right to defend yourself or others from serious harm or death. Most states recognize that right. If your employer states that you will not carry a weapon on duty, that is his right. You can obey or change jobs. Those who say that a utility knife may be put into action as a defensive tool if needed are not necessarily wrong. True, they will have to justify their actions as would anyone else. My point is that they have not turned their safety over to others and instead have made it their responsibility. Being aware of your legal responsibilities to report and justify your actions is of course a given, but necessarily a barrier.

 

[jmaccauley]

Deescalation, recognition of dangerous scenes well far an above what is taught in EMT class, more training in dealing with EDPs, addicts other potentially violent patients. There are whole bunch of things that we should be trained in to prevent being assaulted.

I'm sure these are things that are taught at any responsible EMT training facility. Self defense certainly involves having increased awareness. Unfortunately, there are times when you either didn't read the signs correctly or had no choice but to be there. Every call has the potential of turning violent and every person should have the ability to protect themselves. Staging until the PD makes your scene safe is only the beginning. I have been on calls where the medics refused to treat EDP's who were restrained, but insisted on having an officer ride to the hospital with them for security. You can't always have it both ways. I have been in depositions involving use of force issues (as both an expert witness as well as a defendant) and have been asked if anything different could have prevented the incident. Of course, thats what Monday morning quarterbacks do. Fortunately, you are expected to act under the immediate circumstances and not with what you later learn. That is a Supreme Court decision. Making self defense more restrictive is, of course, a knee jerk reaction to lawsuits. Civil vs. Criminal.