Why private industry has no business in EMS

[guardian528]

company doesn't not provide us with gloves

can't tell if you meant this double negative or not. if you didn't mean it, and they aren't providing you with gloves, i'm pretty sure thats illegal

 

[JCampbell]

I guess I should have clarified from the start.

I'm NOT trying to argue that the paramedics who currently work for private agencies have no business working in EMS. I'm trying to argue that no paramedic should be subject to the drudgery of having to work for a private ambulance company.

Those poor paramedics should move here to America. In THIS country we all have the right to choose where we live and work. No one forces us to work anywhere.

 

[thegreypilgrim]

I disagree.

That's very nice.

I do not see how a government agency's goal is your career. No agency public or private is centered around the EMT or medic and their career path.

I never said that it was, but it's certainly much more employee-friendly than private industry is. They're often much better funded so they don't whine when you actually use supplies or force you to adhere to minimum stocking standards so that you can actually treat more than one patient before having to re-supply. They don't try to force you to go into service without the necessary supplies or with expired ones. They typically use better quality equipment and vehicles. The living quarters provided by public services are actually dwellings which aren't hostile to human life or something you'd worry about catching necrotizing fasciitis from. The list goes on, because they aren't hampered by the need to turn a profit - whatever revenues they do generate go back into the needs of the service.

The goal of a private company is to make a profit. Since their is ample supply of the EMT-B, there is no reason to make extra for this. Medics are not in short supply either. This affects the career path.

I can't see how this is relevant toward refuting my argument.

that can be said about doctors, nurses and a number of other professions. However the jobs are in the private sector. Customer Service might be called a bedside manor in the medical field.

This is a weak analogy. It is much harder for abuse or corner-cutting to take place while running a hospital than it is with ambulance companies. Operating something like a hospital is so heavily regulated that they almost are public facilities. And despite this, nurses, doctors, & other healthcare professionals who work for private hospitals likely do experience similar nonsensical affronts to their professional & ethical concerns brought up by the corporate aspects of their institution which they did not sign up for.

Interfacilty transfers are not EMS and public agencies tend not to them.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Private ambulances often do both 911 and IFT's, and in working for these services you get caught up in both. Public agencies sometimes do them as well if an urgent transfer out of an ED from a "doc-in-the-box" hospital is needed.

And private companies/privte hospitals can and do provide quality EMS in 911 systems. Private doctor groups provide Emergency physicians, PAs and NPs.

I'm sure some actually do, but the fact is most don't. My whole point is that people should think of EMS as they think of fire departments or police departments. I'm sure that there are some private fire protection agencies and private security firms that provide quality services, but I'm sure nobody would be comfortable with privatizing the fire service or the police service for the general public. That's just a Pandora's box waiting to be opened. I'm not going to comment any further on physicians/nurses/PA's/NP's/etc. who work for private hospitals as I've already pointed out I think this isn't a good analogy.

 

[thegreypilgrim]

Those poor paramedics should move here to America. In THIS country we all have the right to choose where we live and work. No one forces us to work anywhere.

Gee, thanks for that rigorous analysis. Why didn't I think of that? Oh I know - because that would be a gross oversimplification of the economic factors that determine availability of jobs and the negotiating equity between employers and employees.

 

[downunderwunda]

I would have thought in a First World, Economic leading country like the US, basic healthcare, including pre hospital healthcare, would be a basic human right. This is without socio-economic factors contributing.

Why should a person with chest pain (not diagnosed at this point) be scared to call an ambulance because they cant afford it? Minutes mean muscle. If we provide them with free pre hospital health care, with a transport & subsequent admission, we may save muscle & that person can then be a continuing contributing member of society.

Why is it that every other First World country has free healthcare & the US doesnt?

 

[ZVNEMT]

can't tell if you meant this double negative or not. if you didn't mean it, and they aren't providing you with gloves, i'm pretty sure thats illegal

er... yea.. thats what i meant. but it'd be kinda difficult to nail them for it, and i looked up the laws on it. in this area an ambulance is required to have a minimum of 2 gloves on board.

and im sure theres a private stash of gloves somewhere in the office so they can cover their asses.

 

[Seaglass]

er... yea.. thats what i meant. but it'd be kinda difficult to nail them for it, and i looked up the laws on it. in this area an ambulance is required to have a minimum of 2 gloves on board.

and im sure theres a private stash of gloves somewhere in the office so they can cover their asses.

I suspect OSHA would be all over that...

 

[reaper]

He is right. Michigan state EMS only requires two pairs of gloves on the truck! That is the most asinine thing I have seen from a Health Dept.

We are required to have two BOXES of each SIZE on the trucks!

 

[firecoins]

That's very nice.

Why post a thread if you dismiss disagreement with "thats very nice" maybe just start a blog.

I never said that it was, but it's certainly much more employee-friendly than private industry is.

You certainly implied that private industry cares about "careers" and the evils of profit.

Government organizations running EMS in this area are hardly ever above minimums stocking standards. The equipment used is often sub par. They are more career friendly if you don't mind a supervisor making sure every one of a 1000 plus rules are enforced over common sense.

This is a weak analogy. It is much harder for abuse or corner-cutting to take place while running a hospital than it is with ambulance companies. up for.

Ill take your word for it.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Private ambulances often do both 911 and IFT's, and in working for these services you get caught up in both. Public agencies sometimes do them as well if an urgent transfer out of an ED from a "doc-in-the-box" hospital is needed.

Yes only doc in the box hospitals need urgent transfers. The crappy public hospitals are always prepared.

I'm sure some actually do, but the fact is most don't. My whole point is that people should think of EMS as they think of fire departments or police departments.

We should be thought of as medical professionals. Not as cops or firefighters.

 

[ah2388]

The school I attended is operated by a service that is I believe what you guys are calling a third party service, being that they are not fire based and from what I can tell, serve an entire county.

They have a full command staff, and from my limited experience it appears that they more or less operated independently from the fire/police in the area. With that being said, they promote a "team environment" between leo's and fire personnel because we need them as much as they need us.

 

[lsingleterry]

I find your opinion of private industry ems quite judgemental. I work for a private company, and we are EMT-IV's and Paramedics with the same license and training as any other EMT or Paramedic. We were trained to do the same skills, and we issue the same drugs. What makes us less qualified? Professionalism is up to the individual to show the public, and his/her coworkers. Try to judge people as individuals, don't blame the organization for the acts of individuals.

 

[wolfwyndd]

(1) Conflict of interest - obligations toward providing quality equipment, personnel, training, management, etc. versus "business needs" of profitability.

(2) Utter lack of any recognizable form of professional management - particularly when it comes to the issue of disciplinary action.

I haven't read the ENTIRE thread (about 1/2 so far) but going back to the original statements, I disagree, on BOTH counts.

EVERY agency in the health care field has to keep an eye on their 'bottom line.' Using the conflict of interest argument then hospitals should also not be in the health care business. Hospitals are private sector companies that need to make a profit. If they don't, they start closing hospitals or moving them to areas that are more profitable.

In regards to 'professional management,' as a blanket statement, I disagree there too. I know of some EMS places, both public AND private, that pay for every tiny little class you even THINK you wanna go too. And I also know some EMS places, both public AND private, that you pretty much have to beg, borrow, or steal equipment that you NEED, not just WANT.

It varies from company to company, and agency to agency. While we all may work in the same field, it is sometimes difficult to judge one against another. Companies, agency's, and even STATES, are as individual as. . . . . . individuals. They're all unique.

 

[thegreypilgrim]

I find your opinion of private industry ems quite judgemental. I work for a private company, and we are EMT-IV's and Paramedics with the same license and training as any other EMT or Paramedic. We were trained to do the same skills, and we issue the same drugs. What makes us less qualified? Professionalism is up to the individual to show the public, and his/her coworkers. Try to judge people as individuals, don't blame the organization for the acts of individuals.

Nothing at all. I work for private EMS too, and I'm quite sure you guys are great EMTs and paramedics. My comments are directed mainly at the managerial aspects of EMS agencies and the "working environment" that predominately goes with privatized EMS.

 

[thegreypilgrim]

I haven't read the ENTIRE thread (about 1/2 so far) but going back to the original statements, I disagree, on BOTH counts.

EVERY agency in the health care field has to keep an eye on their 'bottom line.' Using the conflict of interest argument then hospitals should also not be in the health care business. Hospitals are private sector companies that need to make a profit. If they don't, they start closing hospitals or moving them to areas that are more profitable.

Not all hospitals are part of the private sector - many are public and others are private but non-profit organizations. I suppose I just take issue with the notion of healthcare being regarded as a "business" that someone could capitalize on and profit from. Something about that doesn't sit well with me.

In regards to 'professional management,' as a blanket statement, I disagree there too. I know of some EMS places, both public AND private, that pay for every tiny little class you even THINK you wanna go too. And I also know some EMS places, both public AND private, that you pretty much have to beg, borrow, or steal equipment that you NEED, not just WANT.

It varies from company to company, and agency to agency. While we all may work in the same field, it is sometimes difficult to judge one against another. Companies, agency's, and even STATES, are as individual as. . . . . . individuals. They're all unique.

This is no doubt true, but really this is a red herring. I have found that the problems of a lack of professional management, "corner cutting" on supplies, treating crews like dirt, and running them into the ground on units that should have been retired long ago seem to go more with private EMS organizations than public ones.

 

[loadngo]

(1) Conflict of interest - obligations toward providing quality equipment, personnel, training, management, etc. versus "business needs" of profitability.

(2) Utter lack of any recognizable form of professional management - particularly when it comes to the issue of disciplinary action.

List your reasons

Did we used to work together? Sounds familiar.

I'm convinced - private companies have no buisness running 911 calls.

 

[Thindian]

I find it funny that people think the government has the money to pay for the EMTs, Paramedics and ambulances that are otherwise provided by private ambulance companies throughout the country.

 

[reaper]

Geez, maybe because it happens all over the country?

 

[loadngo]

I find it funny that people think the government has the money to pay for the EMTs, Paramedics and ambulances that are otherwise provided by private ambulance companies throughout the country.

I find it kinda funny that you don't realize that 90% plus of private ambulance bills are paid by "the government."

 

[rescue99]

I find it kinda funny that you don't realize that 90% plus of private ambulance bills are paid by "the government."

Yep, Medicare / Medicaid controls payment but, EMS workers sure don't get state or federal pay! The only contract (I think) that requires wages to be in line with federal standard is VA transports. Never known of anyone to actually get paid more for VA transports but the EMS agencies contractually agree to pay more.

 

[loadngo]

Yep, Medicare / Medicaid controls payment but, EMS workers sure don't get state or federal pay! The only contract (I think) that requires wages to be in line with federal standard is VA transports. Never known of anyone to actually get paid more for VA transports but the EMS agencies contractually agree to pay more.

I've done some VA IFTs and got no extra money for them.

Around here the VA employs some EMTs(all levels) to do IFTs and their pay is outstanding. Of course those jobs are very difficult to get.