So I was reading an article a couple of months ago fron the Orange County Register and it was about firefighter salaries, there was an Engineer/paramedic with OCFA who made 200k+ last year of course with overtime, and only has a HS diploma. What do you think min or max salaries should be in ems weather fire/based or not
What should be paid?
- Thread starter atropine
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I think compensation should reflect:
-Training, skills, and knowledge, all required to be up-to-date
-Experience, both with the current outfit and previous ones
-Amount of time worked
Additionally, in a perfect world, attitude would count for a percentage of your salary too.
That being said, 200 grand a year sounds pretty nice right now.
-Training, skills, and knowledge, all required to be up-to-date
-Experience, both with the current outfit and previous ones
-Amount of time worked
Additionally, in a perfect world, attitude would count for a percentage of your salary too.
That being said, 200 grand a year sounds pretty nice right now.
Wait, how do you get to be an engineer without at least a bachelor's?
akflightmedic
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Because very few FDs require a degree for engineer position. It isn't rocket science...
What exactly is an FD engineer?
Oh, that type. Sorry--with the salary, I immediately jumped to fire protection engineering, and completely overlooked the rank.
The guys who make calculations about flow rates, cubic feet of water, pressure. Stuff that any vollie FF will tell you can be done with a calculator.
I'd imagine they also have architectural training, etc.
Alternatively: Aim. Spray. Pray. Hooray.
Level1pedstech
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I think some might have a little more respect and understanding of what being an engineer requires if they were given some proper and concise information.
With most departments the engineer or apparatus operator is second in command behind the company officer. Duties include responding in a safe and efficient manner to calls for service. The responsibility for the safety of all on the engine makes the engineers job a little more than "rocket science". The public image of a department can be seriously affected by an engineer that acts in an unsafe manner, not to mention the liability the department faces should there be an accident. I'm sure you all have your stories but when you look at the big picture the safe and responsible operators are by far the majority. Once on scene the engineer will place the apparatus in a safe position again making the company's safety his first priority. On a structure response getting a water source is taken into consideration while en-route and a good engineer will know what hydrant to have his firefighter take. On a fire scene the engineer will man the panel and calculate what flow rates and combinations of hose line will work best for the situation at hand. There is so much more especially when it comes to calculations but that's a quick review of the engineer position for the non fire folks.
In most departments the engineer position is the first step up the promotional ladder from firefighter. Its a competitive and well sought after position that requires passing the appropriate promotional exam and demonstrating knowledge to the satisfaction of the command and or training officers.
With most departments the engineer or apparatus operator is second in command behind the company officer. Duties include responding in a safe and efficient manner to calls for service. The responsibility for the safety of all on the engine makes the engineers job a little more than "rocket science". The public image of a department can be seriously affected by an engineer that acts in an unsafe manner, not to mention the liability the department faces should there be an accident. I'm sure you all have your stories but when you look at the big picture the safe and responsible operators are by far the majority. Once on scene the engineer will place the apparatus in a safe position again making the company's safety his first priority. On a structure response getting a water source is taken into consideration while en-route and a good engineer will know what hydrant to have his firefighter take. On a fire scene the engineer will man the panel and calculate what flow rates and combinations of hose line will work best for the situation at hand. There is so much more especially when it comes to calculations but that's a quick review of the engineer position for the non fire folks.
In most departments the engineer position is the first step up the promotional ladder from firefighter. Its a competitive and well sought after position that requires passing the appropriate promotional exam and demonstrating knowledge to the satisfaction of the command and or training officers.
JPINFV
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So basically over half of the description (namely this half that I'm quoting) is the exact same description for anyone who operates a company vehicle, emergency or not. I definitely don't consider operating and parking an emergency vehicle to be anything complicated, but God knows that not all emergency response providers are the brightest crayon in the box.
Level1pedstech
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That's not the first fire guy to make some big money on overtime. I hope he has some tax write offs or he is only going to pocket the same amount as the guy making 100k. Its a well known fact that its cheaper to pay overtime than to recruit more staff. Especially with big city agencies the costs for testing,outfitting,paying a salary and benefit package is what keeps many departments gladly paying overtime to those who want it and there are plenty willing to stand up and shovel in the cash.
I don't think you should have a set min/max pay scale for any field of work. Its should be based on basic economic principles like supply and demand. An employee should be entitled to pay based on what they bring to the table in the way of skills . Every department is different and all the variables have to be taken into account. In most union shops contracts are well thought out and compensation is based on what the local market will bear.
Most entry level municipal fire positions do not require anything above a high school diploma but having a degree will put you in a higher ranking with some departments.
firetender
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Of course, he's part of the Upper Echelon and that's a whole different deal because it's more involved with "perceived" value, by OTHER Upper Echelon cronies that sets the price. And it's not about his skills so much as his career path of connections. No judgment here, nor am I minimizing his importance or value, that's just how he gets $200K.
Shishkabob
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FDs need to have a smaller budget, period.
Sorry, but if you spend the smallest portion of your budget on something that you do most, and instead spend more money on toys that you'll use a few times a year, you have your priorities mixed up and do not need the budget you have.
Sorry, but if you spend the smallest portion of your budget on something that you do most, and instead spend more money on toys that you'll use a few times a year, you have your priorities mixed up and do not need the budget you have.
Level1pedstech
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If you want to look at it that way I guess you could but let me ask you this, how many company vehicle operators are working in the conditions that the operator of an emergency vehicle operates under. How many company vehicle operators are driving under code conditions with responsibility for the safety of other employees in their vehicle. You cant be saying that a taxi driver faces the same conditions operating his company vehicle that the fire apparatus operator does. Have you ever placed an engine at the scene of an accident on a major interstate if you have you would know there is a little more involved than just "parking" the vehicle. What about egress in case of an emergency and taking into consideration the others that may come in behind you. I don't think you have a clear grasp of what is required so its not a suprise that you find being an engineer such a simple task. I do think its more skill and training that makes one a good vehicle operator emergency or not. If more departments offered advanced operator training I think there would be a better image with the public.
This is CALIFORNIA.
Did you happen to notice all the Correctional Officers that made almost $250K with a HS diploma and the academy cert? How about all the LEOs in that state that also made that much? RNs in CA can start at $150K without doing much OT and with just a mere 2 year education. RTs can also make well into the 6 digits. I personally won't accept an assignment in CA for less than 6 digits without OT and I still expect all my housing and traveling expenses to be paid.
Anything in CA below $80K is considered poverty and $200K is barely a living standard in some parts of CA. Thus, it is very difficult to compare wages. Also, I am surprised that the starting wages for LA county FFs are so low when compared to the cost of living and the wages of FFs in other parts of the country. FFs in LA must work well over 3000 hours just to stay afloat.
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Heh. Have you seen the starting salaries for NYPD lately? Rookies make something like $27K. It's really a disgrace, but when the PBA last negotiated the contract, they agreed to reduce the starting salary in exchange for top pay in five years. Frankly, I don't know how you live on that money in NYC, unless you live in a box under a subway overpass and eat cat food.
I work for the state, and I won't get started on the massive pay inequities. Suffice it to say that there are secretaries making more than lawyers with 7-10 years of experience (oh, and there are brand new attorneys being brought in at starting salaries higher than people here 4-5 years).
Don't try to figure out where the public services put their value. It will just make your head hurt.
thegreypilgrim
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It seems like they don't even really value anything. It seems more like whatever particular regime in place at a given time values something highly specific, and pays out for it - then a new regime takes over, and values something completely different but the previous "value" is just forgotten about and kept in place. So you just have this patchwork of entirely random and thoughtless payscales that are never re-evaluated or adjusted, but the government machine just charges on.
JPINFV
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It doesn't matter. If you're going crazy driving code, then you shouldn't be driving. Period. If you can't operate a vehicle in a "safe and efficient manner" you shouldn't be operating a vehicle. Similarly, if you can't evaluate the road configuration as you park and set yourself up for a proper egress, you probably shouldn't be driving. Sorry, but no. I don't consider it hard to park a vehicle across a lane to block it to be hard. To consider that "hard," would make me consider driving a tow truck harder under similar conditions. Similarly, I don't consider it particularly hard to drive a vehicle code. Sure, it's harder to not crash if the operator is tail gating, blowing through stop lights, and failing to anticipate traffic, but that's the sign of a poor operator, not a particularly hard job.
As far as comparing it to a taxi driver, my comment still stands that if a taxi driver can't operate his taxi in a safe and efficient manner, then he shouldn't be driving. Maybe I'm some sort of idiot savant, but I just don't find driving code to be any sort of challenge unless you're (generic "you") driving like an idiot and/or butthole. To be fair, though, a fair amount of the population drive like idiots and/or buttholes.
Aidey
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I personally am a fan of the "hazard pay" model. Figure out what an appropriate low-end living wage would be for that particular area, lets use $30,000 a year as an example. Then different types of incidents would earn you different hazard pay depending on 1. How hazardous it is and 2. How much extra training is needed to perform that task. Car fire? Extra $30 an hour, Structure Fire? extra $100 an hour. Swift water rescue? $120. BLS run? $20. ALS? $50.
This way the wages are decent, but they also reflect what the person is actually doing at work. There are few jobs that have such a wide range of activity level during the day. In most positions you are going to have some sort of steady work to do your whole shift. FDs on the other hand may go 12 hours no doing anything. Should they really get paid $50 an hour for that? I don't think so.
In my area a fully vested 20 year paramedic with the private company tops out at $51,000 a year without OT. A 20 year FF/Paramedic is somewhere up around $180,000. Usually more since the 20 year guys are often also officers by that time. A 5 year EMTB/FF makes 71,000 a year.
There is no way you can convince me that salaries like that are justified or fair in any way shape or form.
This way the wages are decent, but they also reflect what the person is actually doing at work. There are few jobs that have such a wide range of activity level during the day. In most positions you are going to have some sort of steady work to do your whole shift. FDs on the other hand may go 12 hours no doing anything. Should they really get paid $50 an hour for that? I don't think so.
In my area a fully vested 20 year paramedic with the private company tops out at $51,000 a year without OT. A 20 year FF/Paramedic is somewhere up around $180,000. Usually more since the 20 year guys are often also officers by that time. A 5 year EMTB/FF makes 71,000 a year.
There is no way you can convince me that salaries like that are justified or fair in any way shape or form.
scottyb
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Tell that to the person who's family member could have been saved by that toy. Or use family member operating for the FD that died and that toy could have prevented it.
Budget's are always a touch subject. In a perfect world, all the stuff that could potentially be needed for an incident is purchased, with no waste. This includes personnel at the appropriate pay. But, in our imperfect world, stuff is purchased that probably shouldn't be based on the "what if" scenario. Some of it never, fortunately or unfortunately, depending how you look at it, is never used. Some of it, on the fire side, is based on imperfect or unproven science, something not afforded the EMS community for obvious reasons.