Volunteer squads- minimum participation rules?

medic417. since i am new to the board can i ask a few quick questions? i see your info page lists you as 'professional ems', can you enlighten me as to what kind? private? 911? give some stats on run volume and population and so on? and just curious as to why it sounds like you are against volunteers?

thanks
2630
 
Knowing medic417, I don't believe where he works has anything to do with his opinions on EMS. Many people who are in systems nothing like his feel the same way. It is simply a professional philosophy that, when more than half of the providers of a service put no value on their services, and give it away for free, that the public will never put any value on us either. After all, if we don't respect ourselves, why should anyone else respect us? Add to that the constant efforts that the volunteer lobby puts on lawmakers and regulatory agencies to prevent the elevation of educational standards, and it is clear that volunteers are the single most damaging factor to the progress of EMS. This results in perpetuation of the bleak job market in EMS, as well as the low pay and low practice standards that we have suffered since the beginning of EMS. Regardless of how much it offends anyone personally, there is simply no intelligent way to dispute those facts. As a professional (yes, that means you do it as a profession, not as just a hobby, no matter how "professional" you may treat your hobby), medic417 is just dismayed by all of this and would like to see us progress into the 20th century. How people can find any non-selfish fault with that philosophy is beyond me.
 
AJ thanks for posting. i guess in my eyes i see it a bit different.

2630
 
Can we NOT turn this into yet another "Volunteers Suck" thread? We all know your stances, and if you feel it necessary to tell the new guy about it you can just as easily link him to one of the many locked threads that have already taken place here.

Seriously, it's covered ground, and neither side is going to budge. Let it die already.
 
Can we not constantly try to appoint oneself as a moderator here, trying to order people around?

2630 said:
i guess in my eyes i see it a bit different.
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Other than a defensive emotional response, do you have any facts that would contradict any of the above theory? I've been considering all of this for thirty-three years of practice, and I have not found any such contradictory facts.

(I'm not accusing you of being defensive or emotional, as you haven't even responded yet. Not trying to offend or provoke you. Just trying to assure the discussion remains intelligent and focused upon the facts, and not how we "feel" about things.)
 
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not a defensive emotional response by any means. i chose to leave it as i did because i was not wanting to turn this into a bashing of one level of service over another, and i will do my best to keep that from happening. all levels of service have a spot in the food chain, and as much as i want to be at the top... i am stuck at the bottom. right now i am sorry that i may be keeping some from bringing ems out of the dark ages, but when i am provided equipment from the dark ages, i do the best i can.

i asked for background info because in my case i have never had the opportunity to work for or with a large department, that has many fulltime members, and i wanted to enlighten myself as to how others get along.
i have 2 departments that are fulltime fire and ems (4-5 people per shift), about 20 minutes to each side of my small community. when needed, we can have them meet us somewhere to help with a pt, but it seems many times that they don't put their best foot forward to help. it's an elitist attutde toward not only us, but everyother department that may summon them for assisstance.

AJ: It is simply a professional philosophy that, when more than half of the providers of a service put no value on their services, and give it away for free, that the public will never put any value on us either.

i put a value on the service that i provide... seeing the person that i may have just saved stop by the firehouse and say hi one day. to me there is no better way to be repaid, then to see someone still with thier loved ones. so with that i don't feel that i am giving my services away. guess that means that i am not burnt out (joking)!

2630

ps. i apologize to the original poster on getting a bit off topic. sorry!
 
2630 said:
i put a value on the service that i provide... seeing the person that i may have just saved stop by the firehouse and say hi one day. to me there is no better way to be repaid, then to see someone still with thier loved ones. so with that i don't feel that i am giving my services away.
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Really? What percentage of your patients stop by the firehouse to thank you?

Semantic games do nothing to make your point, or to improve the level of discourse. Even if you completely twist the definition of compensation, you still cannot honestly say you are paid. And you certainly could never pay your rent with that form of payment.
 
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AJ Hidell said:
Can we not constantly try to appoint oneself as a moderator here, trying to order people around?
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A plea for common sense and civil discourse to the subject actually at hand is hardly appointing oneself moderator and ordering anyone around. Seems like any thread that is started asking a question regarding volunteer service gets you, Rid, and the usual cast of players coming in to tell them how and why they are the evil destroying "your" profession.

We both know where the conversation goes from here. Why not just cut to the chase and show him one of the previous threads, and just leave this one to the question at hand?
 
PapaBear434 said:
We both know where the conversation goes from here.
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If "we" all knew, then our new friend here wouldn't have asked. Just because you know it all doesn't mean that everyone does. Why not allow n00bs to participate in the dialogue just like you were?
 
AJ Hidell said:
If "we" all knew, then our new friend here wouldn't have asked. Just because you know it all doesn't mean that everyone does. Why not allow n00bs to participate in the dialogue just like you were?
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Just trying to save him the pointless, self righteous merry-go-round that results each and every time the word "Volunteer" is uttered in front of you people. Something that I'm failing in doing right now, I might add. On that note, I'll leave you to your preaching and await the eventual shutdown of this thread. It's only a matter of time before the same ground is covered on both sides, with neither side giving any ground, and a mod finally getting sick of it. He'll shut down the thread, hand out a few warnings, and it will all begin again the next time a new guy shows up and posts something about how he's signing on with a volunteer service and wants some advice.
 
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AJ Hidell said:
If "we" all knew, then our new friend here wouldn't have asked. Just because you know it all doesn't mean that everyone does. Why not allow n00bs to participate in the dialogue just like you were?
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my question was simple. medic417... tell me about the area in which you run and NOTHING else. i am not here to start anything. i am trying to diversify my knowledge here and this is what i get. at no point am i trying to be an *** to anybody and i would like the courtesy of the same toward me.

as for people that return to the firehouse to say hi. the answer is many! we cover an area that is large on size but few on people. with members that have an average length of service of 15 to 20 years and have lived here all of their life, many are hard pressed to find someone in the area that they don't know! lets not even add the fact that many members have family that is in our area. it's not like the city where your pt gets a number at some point and you may never see them again. i can't tell you how many times i have sat in the local diner and had someone come up to me and let know about the care that i provided for a loved one. i have had it go both ways also.

as for the payment. YES that is what it means to me and the other members that run with me. not only are we caring for friends and relatives but those of our fellow department members as well. are we financially compensated... yes to the tune of basic gas money. i get a check twice a year one goes toward the house payment (does not even come close to making a full one) and the other is just enough to cover some christmas for my wife and i.

i am sorry that you think these are semantic games to me. i can assure that they are not. and like i said before, i am here to learn and use the knowledge of the members here as a tool as i begin to try my second attempt at medic school. if i am mistaken, would someone please take a minute to let me know.

2630

edit: sorry if stirred a hornets nest. i have said what i need to and can be reached through my email (preferred) for anything further.
 
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"If you're good at something, never do it for free." - The Joker
 
LOL@ The Joker! Never saw that movie, but it's still funny!

2630, no worries. I certainly have not taken your posts as inflammatory. I understood and appreciate your question. I was just trying to address your concern succinctly to prevent it from deteriorating. And unlike others here, I don't feel like every discussion here must be something that has never been discussed before. What are we supposed to do, PapaBear? Are we supposed to bash every new poster who asks a question that has been asked before? Tell them to search it and shut them down? If we did that, this place would die very quickly.

As for your "compensation", it is a semantic game, albeit a non-malicious one. Think about it. If your real job (assuming you have one) decided that you were suddenly worth nothing more than the occasional pat on the back, I bet you would take exception to that being sufficient compensation for the services you render. And your landlord would be less than understanding too. If you simply look at it professionally, instead of through volunteer eyes, you can see the issue here. Whether or not you choose to do so, or to accept the reality after you do, is up to you. And regardless, the fact remains that volunteer EMS -- whether it gives you personal satisfaction or not -- is harmful to the advancement to the profession, and prevents your community from every getting anything better.
 
AJ Hidell said:
LOL@ The Joker! Never saw that movie, but it's still funny!

2630, no worries. I certainly have not taken your posts as inflammatory. I understood and appreciate your question. I was just trying to address your concern succinctly to prevent it from deteriorating. And unlike others here, I don't feel like every discussion here must be something that has never been discussed before. What are we supposed to do, PapaBear? Are we supposed to bash every new poster who asks a question that has been asked before? Tell them to search it and shut them down? If we did that, this place would die very quickly.
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Problem is, he didn't ask this. You guys took it upon yourselves...

Never mind. Now I'm arguing about the merits of arguing the argument we've argued to the end already. You've got me on the merry-go-round anyway, damn it! If we get back on track, I'll be back. I'm not going to be the one to get this thread shut down and another matching set of warnings.
 
no harm no foul. i was just afraid of where the post was headed, and did not want to go down the path that has been traveled so much. a few of the comments among ours indicate to me that this maybe a very touchy subject!
at least for a few more weeks... my real job (a commercial aircraft mechanic), affords me the luxury of being able to support my family and allow me the ability to volunteer my services. it has been decided that once medic school is complete, i will turn my focus toward a job running 911 ems.
i don't think that it is just volunteers that hurt the industry either (although i recognize what you are saying and i do tend to agree with most of it). i think an attitude change on the part of both is warranted. i think i said it a bit back, i would love to run with a large department and see how it works. so what are the chances you could get me a job?

2630

what a way to introduce myself, huh?
 
PapaBear is right, my origninal question had nothing to do with the merits of volunteer vs. paid providers. I have been in this business for more than 20 years, worked in paid private (ambulance co), paid public (city FD) and volunteer services. I've heard the argument over and over many times, and yes both sides have valid points, the catch however is that there are rural areas of the country that cannot sustain a paid service (private or municipal) or if they were the only EMS provider the response time would be 30 minutes or more. Anyway I would appreciate if we could keep this thread on track and civil. Please only respond if you have valid input on the original question which was:
Does your volunteer squad/ambulance company have rules or expectations on the number of calls each reponder must respond to per quarter,half or year and if so what are they? What about a minimum number of meetings or drills you must attend in a year? What are the consequences and how is it handled if a volunteer does not meet the minimum requirments?
Thanks,
Mike
 
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