Tazers?

[Lets_roll]

i was brain storming the other night i was thinking:
Scenario 1: Law enforcement declared a scene safe, then got called to another call (robbery ..ETC..) while EMT Bob was treating the patient someone comes up behind him and starts choking him. the idea is to drop your gear and get out but what if you cant. why cant we carry less than lethal defense wepons, Tazers,mace or something to that effect? im not sure how many EMS providers die each year because of something like this but it sounds good to me...prove me wrong

 

[ffemt8978]

You may want to check out the following website:

www.dt4ems.net

This topic has been discussed here before, but it has been a while. Some of the issues raised previously (off of the top of my head)

1. Appropriate training
2. Liability issues
3. Image you would portray
4. What happens after you use force on the patient
5. Does being armed actually increase the risk to EMS workers
6. Weapon retention

If you are in a fight where you fear for your life (as in the scenario you presented), then you fight to stay alive using whatever is available because there are no rules. Please keep in mind that whatever equipment you carry may be taken away from you by an attacker, and could also be used on you. The one thing that can not be taken from you is your own ability using your brains and your body.

 

[reaper]

That is why you have a partner to watch your back on scene. No one should be able to sneak up on you. Here PD does not leave a scene they declare safe, until we transport.

Like said, when fighting for your life, all is fair. Hit him with o2 tank, stab with trauma shears or pen. throw bag at him. You just have to think on your feet.

 

[Arkymedic]

i was brain storming the other night i was thinking:
Scenario 1: Law enforcement declared a scene safe, then got called to another call (robbery ..ETC..) while EMT Bob was treating the patient someone comes up behind him and starts choking him. the idea is to drop your gear and get out but what if you cant. why cant we carry less than lethal defense wepons, Tazers,mace or something to that effect? im not sure how many EMS providers die each year because of something like this but it sounds good to me...prove me wrong

Personally as a certified LEO I would not want a taser with me as a medic. A taser looks just like a gun and that is something else for people to link me as a medic to law enforcement with and potentially could cost me my life faster.

 

[rescuepoppy]

If you are foced to protect yourself or your partner a little o-2 therapy or 1000 cc bolus of normal saline might be appropriate.

 

[firecoins]

Personally as a certified LEO I would not want a taser with me as a medic. A taser looks just like a gun and that is something else for people to link me as a medic to law enforcement with and potentially could cost me my life faster.

I agree. Avoid things that link the EMS provider to the cops. The public needs to see EMS as a separte entity than cops.

Mace is even worse. In close spaces you get yourself and your partner/s.

Furthermore. You should try to keep everyone on scene in front of you and an escape route of some sort. I am not going to say its possible but it should be something your trying to do. You need to think a bit tactically.

 

[EMTryan]

A couple of years ago I talked with one of my friends who is an EMT. He showed me the collapsable batton he secertly carried for his safety even though his service did not allow EMTs to carry any weapons. Now that i'm an EMT I wonder if he still keeps the batton with him.

Personally I think that being an EMT is dangerous but I don't want anything that may make me look more like an LEO. Allowing EMTs to carry weapons is a potential legal nightmare, especially since tasers can be lethal in some circumstances. OC spray and tazers both require extensive training in order to be able to safely and effectively use them in a real life situation.

In a real life situation I would use whatever I could as a weapon...o2 tank, trauma shears, pen, anything. I agree with Reaper, this is part of the reason why you have a partner to watch your back on scene. LEOs may or may not have a partner on scene but EMTs work in pairs. We should never forget the importance of keeping ourselves and our partner safe.

 

[katgrl2003]

Another suggestion... Martial arts. Karate, jujitsu, nijitsu, they all teach you to be aware of your surroundings. This applies to anything, whether its walking down the street, driving the ambulance, or coming up on a dangerous scene. As my karate instuctor told me, "Keep your antenae up."

-Kat

 

[jmaccauley]

I find it ironic that the thought of extensive training in using less lethal weapons is unacceptible, but using whatever is available in a pinch is O.K.

TASER's are no more life threatening than a ride in the back of the ambulance. There is a misconception that by not appearing to have a connection to law enforcement somehow makes the EMT safer. I'm not sure that is the case. Medics are attacked at an alarming rate and are often left to fend for themselves rather than get proper documented training training DT4EMS does offer a very good program that should be required for anyone who deals with the public. I'm not sure that carrying an arsenal is always appropriate, but concealing some tools that are actually designed for self defense is realistic.

 

[Alexakat]

Another suggestion... Martial arts. Karate, jujitsu, nijitsu, they all teach you to be aware of your surroundings. This applies to anything, whether its walking down the street, driving the ambulance, or coming up on a dangerous scene. As my karate instuctor told me, "Keep your antenae up."

-Kat

This is kind of silly, but has anyone seen the "Friends" episode where Ross is talking about "unagi--the state of total awareness"? The concept is very real & extremely helpful in EMS. Taekwondo has taught me to really hone in on this...but
I still always chuckle when I think about the way it was presented in that "Friends" episode.

 

[jmaccauley]

This is kind of silly, but has anyone seen the "Friends" episode where Ross is talking about "unagi--the state of total awareness"? The concept is very real & extremely helpful in EMS. Taekwondo has taught me to really hone in on this...but
I still always chuckle when I think about the way it was presented in that "Friends" episode.

That was the one where Ross screamed like a girl when they scared him?

 

[eggshen]

Rock & Roll band and a fast right hand.

It's all about rolls and and such. Rarely will one find an EMS agency willing to accept the fact that we, from time to time, find ourselves in a place where we may need a method of dealing with what may be viewed as a "fight".

You will find those that blather on about "scene safety", "wait for LE", "run", "we don't go in unless the cops clear it"...whatever. This lot lacks the time in grade to speak on the matter unless they roll in podunk wherever where the combative pt. is their brother-in-law at the wedding gone sideways.

Good lord TASERS would be nice. A baton would be adored as well. However it comes down to perceived rolls and how the public sees us and our job. Some locales see us as we are (for the most part), EMT's, medics and such. In urban centers where we deal with those that have difficulty seeing beyond their own issues things change just a touch. Like it or not we are viewed as authority figures. Often one needs to exude authority in order to move on towards completion of the call. The issue resides in the fact that some see this as a challenge to their "authority". In this environment a challenge to one's authority is exactly that....a challenge. May not need to have cops at the jump but damn I do now. The drag is that it did not come in that way so now we have an issue.

My point is this, untill the bean counters have been hooked up with a fast right hand from someone they are doing their best to help we will not (as a profession) be enabled with a tool we need to deal with an issue that most feel does not exist.

Egg

 

[Buzz]

The situation in the original post said the assailant came up from behind and began to choke. Under that situation, how many of you think you would have the clarity of mind to immediately grab your TASER or whatever else and use it effectively, especially if it was completely without warning? It seems like a situation where a martial art, such as krav maga or any of the others that people suggested, would be much more effective. Granted, training comes into play here, as does what you're carrying, and a plethora of other variables.

The use of TASERs would also likely result in a more negative image for EMS personnel, especially if we were to start ending up on the news as often as the police do.

 

[jmaccauley]

I can't say anything negative about TASER's, but you are right. They are useless if not in your hand when needed. However, training in any "art" is an individual undertaking, which you will only do if motivated. A company cannot teach you an "art", martial or otherwise. Be alert and have a plan, but be realistic and try to game out the possibilities before something happens. Oh, and don't cry because your agency doesn't provide the training you feel that you might need. That is an individual responsibility that you need to determine for yourself. Even police officers have restrictions and limitations on their responses. Some will go out on their own and increase their skills and some will wait until bad things happen then blame the agency for not preparing them properly. Scene safety, patient safety and your own safety are your responsibility, not some administrators.

 

[Jon]

Jerry... I've got to agree with you, but I also don't feel that Tasers belong in the hands of every EMT and Medic.

I honestly don't have a problem with providers being trained for and carrying OC spray or foam, as long as they are comfortable with it, and the service has a grasp of the liability issues. OC spray in a belt pouch doesn't look that different from a cell phone or glove pouch.

I do agree that a Taser looks like a weapon.. which may be a bad thing.

 

[medic8613]

I acknowledge that looking like LEOs hinders our ability to do our jobs, and that carrying a weapon helps us look like LEOs. Additionally, I know that to carry any weapons requires extensive training, and legally, could be ugly if the weapons were ever used, but I believe that first and foremost we have the right to be able to defend ourselves whenever necessary, and do what is necessary to go home at the end of the day. It is important to keep the image of EMS positive, but more important to keep EMS as safe as possible. Carrying weapons for self defense doesn't necessarily have to be obvious. Ever visited the White House and seen a Secret Service agent? If you didn't know what their job was would you know they were armed? It is possible to preserve the image of a benevolent organization while still allowing people to protect themselves with more than their pocket knife and an O2 tank (which would really hurt).

A good EMT/medic will evaluate every situation to try and keep an exit open, and people in front of them, but EMS is dynamic, and as such, its not always possible to have these preferable conditions. What if you got backed into a corner by a violent patient? You may have a knife of some sort, blunt trauma shears, an O2 tank, but only if its in reach, and maybe a maglite if its a night call. All fine and good if said violent patient is unarmed, but have you ever been in a knife fight or gone up against a person with a baseball bat? I would want more than just the standard EMS equipment.

The situation presented is not a wild idea. The police often leave a "secured" scene to handle other things, leaving us to fend for ourselves. Additionally, we respond to many calls without police. Many who have worked in EMS know that we can be dispatched to "difficulty breathing" only to find that they are, in fact, having trouble breathing because a bullet or knife punctured their lung. When was the last time police responded to "trouble breathing?" I'm all for running away as fast as I can, but it may not always be an option we have, and kevlar, if its even worn, only does so much. At a minimum we should be able to get trained in the use of, and be allowed to carry OC spray or a taser, and would not object to sidearms. When I go out I always have my armor on, and in addition to a pocket knife and a Leatherman, I keep a second knife tucked in my waistband by my back pocket, not because I expect a dangerous situation, but because I want to be prepared for one.

 

[JJR512]

Don't taze me, bro!

-Andrew Meyer, 2007

 

[jmaccauley]

I agree with that wholeheartedly. It's sad that the distinction is always made that medics are a benevolent organization , while police who are armed with tools to protect themselves and others, are not. Oh well, such are the choices we have made.

DT4EMS should be required by everyone working on, in or around medicl calls.(defensive tactics for ems)