Police and Firefighters Stand by as Man Drowns

[kravturtle]

Seems like there was a lot wrong with this situation. Thoughts?

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/06/01/california.drowning/index.html?iref=NS1

 

[LucidResq]

Very hard to say without knowing the whole story. From what I've heard the people on scene that stood there and watched didn't have the training and/or equipment to perform a water rescue.

Without training or equipment, jumping into the water to save a large suicidal drowning man would be idiotic. There's a very good chance you're both going to drown. It's absolutely silly for people to expect a police officer to rip off his uniform and jump in the water to rescue a 250 lb suicidal person in the water. Although FD came on scene soon afterwards, you will see from the public commentary that this is what many people hoped would happen since PD arrived first.

Obviously though, there's at a minimum, issues with training, resources, equipment and policy. If an agency that covers that much water doesn't have water rescue capabilities, there needs to be some kind of mutual aid agreement that covers that gap. At least some creative use of the resources around you (but again who knows the whole story here). There was a somewhat similar incident in our city a while back - a suicidal party into the water, PD and FD on scene not trained in water rescue, 45+ eta for swiftwater team. There was a lot going on in the 45 min or so before the swiftwater team arrived, but none of it involved people jumping in the water.

 

[abckidsmom]

Seems like a department with first due at the beach should have some water rescue resources available to them. If this man was standing neck deep in water, and then drifted to being treading water, he was likely a long way out. Without proper resources (a boat, or even a surfboard) and safety equipment, I would be pissed if someone I loved attempted this rescue.

People die trying to make untrained and unequipped rescues. If the guy was being vocal about his insistence that he was going to commit suicide (the lines are like this: "Get the f*** away from me. I'll F***ing kill you, don't come near me. I'll do it! I mean it!") then I wouldn't think a swimming rescue in cold water with no wet suits and no PFDs is in order.

I'm a jump in and do something kind of person...even off duty, without proper equipment and with my kids along. I've been there. But without proper training and with limited or no equipment, I wouldn't be stripping down to get in that water.

Now, in 45 minutes, they couldn't find a boat at the beach? Hmmm. Don't take unreasonable risks, but DO make moves to think outside the box if you find yourself backed into a corner.

 

[foxfire]

I would have thought really hard before jumping in after a suicidal pt. They can drown there untrained would be rescuer without much effort. Also try keeping a persons head above the surface in moving water, not really that easy. If they are not trained then they are setting aside personal safety and of there team. A drowning rescuer is no help to anyone.
Please don't get me wrong, I am a lifeguard at heart. I would rescue someone if I knew I was going to be able to safely rescue them.
My two cents worth.
Any trained fast water rescuers in the forum care to chime in?

 

[TransportJockey]

Suicidal patient, no thanks. I'm staying on dry land till a dedicated water rescue team or police boat gets there

 

[JPINFV]

Reach, throw, row, go. The first three should be attempted if possible. The last one is only for people with specialty training.

 

[LucidResq]

I'm not swiftwater-trained myself, but my friends in SAR that are told me they are trained to break a victim's arms if they're freaking out too much and at risk of pulling both themselves and rescuer down. Those who think rescuing a drowning person is as simple as swimming need to consider that fact, along with the large number of both laypeople and trained professionals who have died attempting to rescue a person or pet from the water.

 

[abckidsmom]

A friend just posted this on his FB, with a WWYD?

So far, 3 people have said they would swim out there and get the guy. Idiots.

 

[sirengirl]

Many years ago there was a man here who somehow managed to drive his car into some deep water (I'm assuming off a bridge on the bay here) and no-one in the county at that time was water rescue qualified, and so they had to stand by and watch him drown in his car. You'd better believe we now have a water rescue team. While I was doing clinicals I overheard on the radio system a call go out for a SCUBA rescue team and a LEO boat crew to get a drowning guy out of the boating channel.

 

[JPINFV]

I'd be willing to get into a pool and let someone without training or equipment try to "rescue" me from a depth of 5 feet. I'm willing to bet I can drown them before they can "save" me.

 

[Aidey]

This is a guy who doesn't even want to be rescued, which really makes things unsafe for EMS if they attempt to get him even with proper training and equipment.

The guy made a choice, he had time to change his mind. People have got to be realistic. While I personally have some socialist leanings, I also feel a line has to be drawn. If you are determined to hurt yourself, I'm not talking you out of it.

 

[Chimpie]

Many years ago there was a man here who somehow managed to drive his car into some deep water (I'm assuming off a bridge on the bay here) and no-one in the county at that time was water rescue qualified, and so they had to stand by and watch him drown in his car. You'd better believe we now have a water rescue team. While I was doing clinicals I overheard on the radio system a call go out for a SCUBA rescue team and a LEO boat crew to get a drowning guy out of the boating channel.

I know exactly which one you're referring to.

This is a guy who doesn't even want to be rescued, which really makes things unsafe for EMS if they attempt to get him even with proper training and equipment.

The guy made a choice, he had time to change his mind. People have got to be realistic. While I personally have some socialist leanings, I also feel a line has to be drawn. If you are determined to hurt yourself, I'm not talking you out of it.

Many of our fire trucks, and I believe the ambulances as well, now have some sort of lifesaver that they can throw out into the water in an attempt to rescue them. This was a result of the call that sirengirl mentioned above. IMO, it's a handy tool for rescuers to use, especially for the calls that's questionable like in the original post.

 

[abckidsmom]

A few more details from Statter911:

http://statter911.com/2011/06/01/al...refighters-to-get-training-but-still-no-boat/

 

[sirengirl]

@ link from abckidsmom, I love how much it is referencing their budget problems. We're currently looking at the possibility of some kind of a munity because Rick Scott wants to cut so much money from the State budget that he actually wants to pay teachers/LEO/correctionals/EMS/Fire less, and also cut into their benefits. It's all anyone at the firehouses around here talks about anymore. (Well, that, and what we're having for dinner...)

/hijack.

 

[Journey]

The guy was floating and unconscious when a female bystander swam out and pulled him to shore.

This little city has many problems including legal expenses for the FD and why they now have an interim Fire Chief. It was no surprise when their water unit was cut two years ago. As I remember it then, some in the FD thought it was a waste and a duplication of services since the Coast Guard has a big station there. A few FFs thought it was necessary but that was primarily those who were certified in this specialized training. For an island city with hundreds of wind surfers on that same beach every day, I think they should have found a way and put the differences between the union, lawyers and the city aside or at least reduce the legal expenses of all the bickering.

 

[DrParasite]

Reach, throw, row, go. The first three should be attempted if possible. The last one is only for people with specialty training.

for a patient that wants help, absolutely.

for a suicidal person who doesn't want help, they won't reach for you. if you throw something, they probably won't try to catch you. you can get a boat, if you have one. but still if the person doesn't want help, you will be in for a fight.

but it's a law enforcement scene in that area, and the cops are in charge. and we all know that firefighters have been arrested for not following the orders of the cops, and doing stuff that the cops didn't tell them too, esp on police scenes.

 

[iftmedic]

Im just glad the rescuers were ok, As for the idiot in the water thats one less headache for society.

 

[WuLabsWuTecH]

Hmmm... First multi-quote didn't take. But at the first reply: They did have some sort of mutual aid with the coast guard is my understanding. The unit was out on another run and had to refuel before coming back hence why it took them almost an hour to get there. The return trip plus refuel took up a huge chunk of time.

Now, in 45 minutes, they couldn't find a boat at the beach? Hmmm. Don't take unreasonable risks, but DO make moves to think outside the box if you find yourself backed into a corner.

Ok, you have a boat, now what? I, for one, would have no idea how to do a technical/water rescue off of a boat. I think the key here is that he didn't want help. If he did, throwing something would have been good enough. But you pull up the boat next to him--he still won't climb in!

for a patient that wants help, absolutely.

for a suicidal person who doesn't want help, they won't reach for you. if you throw something, they probably won't try to catch you. you can get a boat, if you have one. but still if the person doesn't want help, you will be in for a fight.

but it's a law enforcement scene in that area, and the cops are in charge. and we all know that firefighters have been arrested for not following the orders of the cops, and doing stuff that the cops didn't tell them too, esp on police scenes.

Not sure where you are from, but at least in my State (Ohio) Fire and EMS have authority over all scenes unless they relinquish it to the LE. Is this not the case in most areas?

 

[sirengirl]

The guy was floating and unconscious when a female bystander swam out and pulled him to shore.

random hijack but... she's pretty beastly if he was 250lb like someone on here said... :blink:

 

[foxfire]

random hijack but... she's pretty beastly if he was 250lb like someone on here said... :blink:

A body in the water is not going to feel as heavy as on land. Plus fat floats a little more.