PM, FF, or both?

[Level1pedstech]

I so want to figure out a way to attach a sound file of people clapping here!

I have that minus, the good pay unfortunately. So they definately are around

Gotta have the good money brother it not only pays your bills and leaves a little for the bank but it shows your respected and appreciated. Sometimes it just comes down to putting in your time and never stop looking for that next great opportunity.

 

[NomadicMedic]

Ideas of where these services exist?

Here's one. http://www.lee-ems.com/Pages/default.aspx

Heard of them?

Here's a few more.

http://www.kingcounty.gov/healthservices/health/ems/MedicOne.aspx
http://www.sussexcountyde.gov/dept/ems/
http://atcems.org/home/

That'll get you started. Ask around. I'm sure there are plenty of other good services out there. And yeah, there are even some privates who don't treat the medics like indentured servants.

 

[Level1pedstech]

Here's one. http://www.lee-ems.com/Pages/default.aspx

Heard of them?

Here's a few more.

http://www.kingcounty.gov/healthservices/health/ems/MedicOne.aspx
http://www.sussexcountyde.gov/dept/ems/
http://atcems.org/home/

That'll get you started. Ask around. I'm sure there are plenty of other good services out there. And yeah, there are even some privates who don't treat the medics like indentured servants.

Knew medic one would be on your list

 

[NomadicMedic]

Knew medic one would be on your list

I'm not a fan of the Medic One system, but many are. In terms of salary, staff longevity and education, they can't be beat. The internal culture isn't my cup of tea.

 

[Level1pedstech]

I'm not a fan of the Medic One system, but many are. In terms of salary, staff longevity and education, they can't be beat. The internal culture isn't my cup of tea.

Never got far enough in the process to learn about their culture. They are well thought of and I wish they had been on my list 20 years ago.

 

[Hockey]

Don't do it

 

[Veneficus]

Take the thousands of medics already in the market then add in the thousands of new ones being spit out by the medic mills each year and I think you have better odds of landing a FF/PM gig. There are some good agencies like yours (if I remember correctly) and I am always quick to point that out but they are so very rare.

I have to register my agreement with this.

As a reformed sinner myself, I do not like the idea of the fire service providing EMS, but the facts are still facts.

The other thing to consider before moving to a job that I did not fully appreciate in my younger days of going wherever the best job was, is what it is like to live in a given location and your activity choices outside of work?

A hard lesson learned. I actually started turning down employment offers at very desirable agencies after exploring and deciding the area living was not for me.

I am a yankee city boy and while the jobs I had in the south were excellent employers, I was really miserable outside of work.

I did not fit into the dominant culture, I did not like the available rural recreational activities, and doing what I did like required extensive travel that I didn't regularly have time for.

It wasn't long before my only enjoyment was going to work and not long after that going to work was utterly miserable too.

Now I live in a place where life outside of work is actually just as enjoyable as work and it has made both aspects better.

 

[46Young]

Are you saying that fire/medics work full time more often then solo medics?

Most of the professional EMS departments in Virginia are fire based dual role as far as I know. For single role, off the top of my head, I don't know of any other than Alexandria Fire and EMS or Richmond Ambulance Authority.

West Virginia has third service EMS in some places.

 

[46Young]

Or, you can move to an area where paramedics are treated like professionals, working for a true third service. A department where the focus is on medicine, education and patient care... Not how much 5" hose is going to fit on the new engine purchased with money made by ALS transports.

Yes, those third services exist. Im proud to say I work in a place where there is excellent pay, a robust pension plan, true advancement through a fair and equatable promotional ladder and no need to put wet stuff on the hot stuff.

County based third service paramedics. The way EMS should be delivered... by single role medics, not by hose jockeys who became paramedics just to land a fire job.

I tried Third Service EMS after working hosptal based 911, and before my current fire based career. I found it limting, with cronyism affecting the few available promotional opportunities, with little room to advance outside of field EMS (working on the bus). Light duty and office work positions are very limited. Some EMS departments do several types of rope rescue and heavy rescue, but this is rare. Due to attrition, we had mandatory OT forced on us continually.

Another, arguably more important thing is the pay and retirement benefits. I've heard that there are a few EMS only departments that pay well, but this is atypical. Most of the municipal third services, namely in the Carolinas, only start at around $30-$33k/yr, and only top out around $50-$55k. That's practically welfare wages when you realize that you're working a 56 hour workweek to earn that pay. For example, for a yearly salary of $33,280, your hourly rate is only $10/hr. You can have that. I shouldn't have to work 140% of a normal workweek just to make the equivalent of a $16/hr 40 hour job. To boot, your OT rate is only $15/hr instead of $24/hr like it should be. What's more, the employer saves on benefits, insurance, training, equipment, etc. for two people on every five hired (56 hours x 5 = 40 hours x 7). So, it's an insult to start me for anything less than $50k/yr with a 25 and out pension @ anything less than a 2.8% multiplier as a single role municipal 911 medic, IMO. If you're private or hospital based, I'm going to need a significantly higher base salary so that I can contrivbute the maximum into a 401k/403b since a pension is not offered.

From what I can gather from these boards, there's maybe like five employers in the country that can offer this.

After working for a starting salary of $38k in South Carolina, I quickly found that a lower cost of living does not justify that low of a starting wage. Housing is the only thing that is cheaper. Everything else costs the same, or is more expensive than can be found in an expensive, urban environment (I'm from NY). A Third Service career in EMS is not sustainable for the long term, IMO, due to the poor wages coupled with long work hours, lack of career advancement opportunites, lack of positions outside of EMS transport, and lack of alternative placement opportunities for the injured or pregnant.

For many, a single role EMS job excluding King County WA, a few places in TX, and Lee County FL/Wake County NC (if you're willing to tolerate low to mediocre pay) are only stepping stones for many who use them as a resume builder while they look for something better. Really, how many EMS "lifers" do you know, and what is the ratio of these lifers to the overall numbers of employees that have passed through the organization throughout the years? Now compare that to a fire department.

I'm not saying that a third service is any better or worse than a fire based service concerning EMS delivery, and the same goes for hospital based (my cousin is the Director of one, former FDNY EMS Officer) and privates. I could show shining examples as well as complete abominations from each category. To say that one type of service is better or worse than another is unfair. For example, the fire service is frequently accused of retarding educational advancements (degrees as a minimum standard) in EMS. This may be true to an extent. However, when you look at EMS as a whole, hardly any privates, third services, or hospitals require an EMS degree, nor do they give hiring preference to degree holders. In many cases, experience and experience only is what counts. The blame for poor education can be shared throughout the various types of EMS employers. What is true is where pay, benefits, career advancement and lateral movement is concerned, the fire service has been shown to outshine the other types of EMS departments in the U.S.

If anyone has an example of a quality Third Service EMS department that also pays well (ballpark of $50k/yr for a 56 hour week) coupled with a pension with a multiplier that gives north of a 70% benefit, please share. It saddens me that there are so few options available. If there were, I probably would have never explored fire based EMS.

 

[Level1pedstech]

I have to register my agreement with this.

As a reformed sinner myself, I do not like the idea of the fire service providing EMS, but the facts are still facts.

The other thing to consider before moving to a job that I did not fully appreciate in my younger days of going wherever the best job was, is what it is like to live in a given location and your activity choices outside of work?

A hard lesson learned. I actually started turning down employment offers at very desirable agencies after exploring and deciding the area living was not for me.

I am a yankee city boy and while the jobs I had in the south were excellent employers, I was really miserable outside of work.

I did not fit into the dominant culture, I did not like the available rural recreational activities, and doing what I did like required extensive travel that I didn't regularly have time for.

It wasn't long before my only enjoyment was going to work and not long after that going to work was utterly miserable too.


Now I live in a place where life outside of work is actually just as enjoyable as work and it has made both aspects better.

You discovered what matters the most and that is happiness in all areas of your life. For most people myself included it takes years of "seasoning" before we reach that point where we know what we need to make us truly happy. Glad you made it.

My situation was much the same,I had reached the top of the ladder in my field after years of hard work and sacrifice. The problem was I had no time other than my six weeks of vacation to enjoy what I had. My routine six days a week for years was a three hour commute,a ten to fourteen hour driving shift then with what little time was left came family time,work outs and maybe 5 hours of sleep. On top of everything else there was the pacific northwest weather that for most of the year was less than desireable at least for a So Cal boy.

In the midst of the worst economy since the great depression at a time when many were desperate to find any kind of job I pulled the plug. A company that I had been looking at for years offered me a position in So Cal and I took it. Walking away from seventeen years of seniority and all the security it offered was tough but I traded it in for what I was missing and that was time. Now I work a 6/3 schedule my commute is one hour a week and the money is actually almost the same. I take a five day stretch off every eight weeks so now my life is now more about what to do with all the time off. As far as the weather its So Cal need I say more.

 

[46Young]

When I mention Career Development, I'm referring to promotions or lateral movement within the department, such as EMS training, Fire Inspector/Fire Marshall, USAR, Peer Fitness Trainer, Secialty Services such as TROT/Hazmat, Pevention, etc, not this:

http://atcems.org/home/index.php?op...ment&catid=40:serving-our-employees&Itemid=18

The training and education ATCEMS provides looks stellar, but the Career Development page mentions nothing about promotional opportunities or availability of positions outside of EMS transport. "Career Development" is misleading for this particular page.

Having said that, I do understand ATCEMS to be one of the top departments. Medic 1's start at $42673 with a 48 hour workweek going on the $14.90/hr starting wage, so it isn't that bad, although it could be better.

 

[46Young]

I've heard only good things about Sussex, DE.

http://www.sussexcountyde.gov/dept/ems/

They only start at $18.58/hr, but it's a 40 hour workweek, so that's justified.

Career ladder's focused heavily on field EMS pt care positions, from what I can tell.

Edit: King County Medic One is notoriously difficult to get into, but I understand that they pay well. Going back to one of my earlier points, they only require a H.S. Diploma, proper certs, and field experience. I don't see any degree requirements here.

The Lee County EMS site is down. I do know that one of our new probies was a BC in a fire department in that region (they screwed with his pay and retirement), and had left Lee County EMS (14 years ago IIRC) for that FD.

 

[Level1pedstech]

I tried Third Service EMS after working hosptal based 911, and before my current fire based career. I found it limting, with cronyism affecting the few available promotional opportunities, with little room to advance outside of field EMS (working on the bus). Light duty and office work positions are very limited. Some EMS departments do several types of rope rescue and heavy rescue, but this is rare. Due to attrition, we had mandatory OT forced on us continually.

Another, arguably more important thing is the pay and retirement benefits. I've heard that there are a few EMS only departments that pay well, but this is atypical. Most of the municipal third services, namely in the Carolinas, only start at around $30-$33k/yr, and only top out around $50-$55k. That's practically welfare wages when you realize that you're working a 56 hour workweek to earn that pay. For example, for a yearly salary of $33,280, your hourly rate is only $10/hr. You can have that. I shouldn't have to work 140% of a normal workweek just to make the equivalent of a $16/hr 40 hour job. To boot, your OT rate is only $15/hr instead of $24/hr like it should be. What's more, the employer saves on benefits, insurance, training, equipment, etc. for two people on every five hired (56 hours x 5 = 40 hours x 7). So, it's an insult to start me for anything less than $50k/yr with a 25 and out pension @ anything less than a 2.8% multiplier as a single role municipal 911 medic, IMO. If you're private or hospital based, I'm going to need a significantly higher base salary so that I can contrivbute the maximum into a 401k/403b since a pension is not offered.

From what I can gather from these boards, there's maybe like five employers in the country that can offer this.

After working for a starting salary of $38k in South Carolina, I quickly found that a lower cost of living does not justify that low of a starting wage. Housing is the only thing that is cheaper. Everything else costs the same, or is more expensive than can be found in an expensive, urban environment (I'm from NY). A Third Service career in EMS is not sustainable for the long term, IMO, due to the poor wages coupled with long work hours, lack of career advancement opportunites, lack of positions outside of EMS transport, and lack of alternative placement opportunities for the injured or pregnant.

For many, a single role EMS job excluding King County WA, a few places in TX, and Lee County FL/Wake County NC (if you're willing to tolerate low to mediocre pay) are only stepping stones for many who use them as a resume builder while they look for something better. Really, how many EMS "lifers" do you know, and what is the ratio of these lifers to the overall numbers of employees that have passed through the organization throughout the years? Now compare that to a fire department.

I'm not saying that a third service is any better or worse than a fire based service concerning EMS delivery, and the same goes for hospital based (my cousin is the Director of one, former FDNY EMS Officer) and privates. I could show shining examples as well as complete abominations from each category. To say that one type of service is better or worse than another is unfair. For example, the fire service is frequently accused of retarding educational advancements (degrees as a minimum standard) in EMS. This may be true to an extent. However, when you look at EMS as a whole, hardly any privates, third services, or hospitals require an EMS degree, nor do they give hiring preference to degree holders. In many cases, experience and experience only is what counts. The blame for poor education can be shared throughout the various types of EMS employers. What is true is where pay, benefits, career advancement and lateral movement is concerned, the fire service has been shown to outshine the other types of EMS departments in the U.S.

If anyone has an example of a quality Third Service EMS department that also pays well (ballpark of $50k/yr for a 56 hour week) coupled with a pension with a multiplier that gives north of a 70% benefit, please share. It saddens me that there are so few options available. If there were, I probably would have never explored fire based EMS.

You really do a great job at breaking down the numbers and laying it out so folks can see what the truth is.

 

[Rescue51]

I'm not sure if they have dual role providers, but if you want to work there, they probably won't be hiring for a few years for either EMS or fire. I would look elsewhere for employment.

Texas, Virginia, and California are big on Fire/Medics

Well, I'm only 15, I won't be a medic for a few more years, but I live in Chicago now, so.... looks like I'm gonna have to move in a few years:unsure:

 

[46Young]

You really do a great job at breaking down the numbers and laying it out so folks can see what the truth is.

I wish it wasn't the case. BTW, I'm not in any way a fan of making firefighting a de facto (or real) requirement to have a decent career in EMS, and the same goes for requiring a P-card to get on a fire department. It is cool that I can do both jobs, though. It definitely prevents burnout. I enjoy EMS txp, just not when it's all I ever do day in and day out. It gets stale, among other things.

This is how things are, though. Maybe every time someone blasts the fire service for retarding the push for degrees as a hiring standard, I'm going to refer them to King County, Sussex County, ATCEMS, Charleston County EMS (SC), etc. who only require a cert, a GED/diploma, and maybe some experience. I would think that if you're the creme de la creme of EMS organizations, your employment opportunities would be highly sought after, which would allow you to set the trend of requiring degrees as a condition of hire, or at least heavy preference in hiring. Why is this not the case?

 

[Veneficus]

I would think that if you're the creme de la creme of EMS organizations, your employment opportunities would be highly sought after, which would allow you to set the trend of requiring degrees as a condition of hire, or at least heavy preference in hiring. Why is this not the case?

Because it means they would have to pay more.

 

[46Young]

Because it means they would have to pay more.

True. This proves my point that EMS employers of all the different systems, by and large, are not interested in the advancement of EMS education. They're all to blame, the same as all the transient EMS workers. Truth be told, once you get away from forums such as emtlife, there aren't too many that are interested in EMS degrees. There's no incentive as things stand at the present.

The nursing profession isn't the best example, either - if you go to any region where there is only one employer, or only one decent employer, they tend to treat their nurses like crap - low pay and poor working conditions.

In my region, for example, there is a hospital system. It is by and large the biggest employer in the region, and the only one that pays much above minimum wage in the area. They recently had a pay re-alignment. Per diems got more. Nurses and other staff across state lines got a little more, but nurses and staff on this side got a pay reduction to pay for it all. A pay reduction. They're already getting below market value to begin with. The nurses are overworked, and must basically do whatever the hospital tells them, since they're the only game in town. Nursing turnover is a problem. New RN's get a couple year's experience, then leave for higher paying systems, although it's well over an hour away. That hospital is near D.C. and it also screwe with it's employees. So they leave for higher paying D.C. hospitals, who overwork them..... ah, screw it. Flight RN's have a good gig if you can get it.

In NY it was the same thing - poor working conditions including holdover, high pt loads, changing schedules constantly, being forced to work through meal breaks, etc. Same complaints in Charleston, SC area hospitals. I knew nurses from my old hospital system plus friends from other hospitals. I'm friends with staff from my local hospital, and work in Fairfax Co. with an NP hired by our EMS training division while seeking refuge from that hospital. My friend and former co-worker works in a hospital in Charleston, as does his wife who is a BSN, who has the same complaints. There are several members of the department who are BSN's and RRT's, and also current ED Techs that report the same conditions. The charleston BSN's maybe only got $25/hr to start as well. Chump change for a BSN, IMO. None of these nurses get pensions, either, unless they have municipal jobs.

It appears to me that for all of nursing's trouble to increase education, the only thing to show for it in many areas is maybe a little more pay and an easy hiring process.

If anything, EMT's and medics, for all their lack of education, seem to have better working conditions in the field than nurses in a lot of places. One pt at a time, and you can create your own meal or facilities break if you know what you're doing. Pay and career ladder, different story.

 

[NomadicMedic]

True, while Sussex does not require a degree at time of hire, I expect that to change. In fact, almost all of our Medics are degreed, we pay a higher salary to medics with a degree, offer an excellent tuition reimbursement package and encourage medics to pursue higher education. Higher education is part of the promotional process. You cannot promote to P3 (our senior paramedic level) without a degree.

I'm not blinded by the light here at Sussex. There are some things I really dislike about working here. However, nothing serious enough to make me want to work anywhere else. If you're seriously considering working for a third service that has a non contributory pension that gets you 50% at the end, pays significantly better than any other paramedic service within 200 miles, places a huge emphasis on education and has a core of lifetime employees that are getting ready to retire... Then call, get an application, schedule a ride along and ask questions.

 

[Veneficus]

True. This proves my point that EMS employers of all the different systems, by and large, are not interested in the advancement of EMS education. They're all to blame, the same as all the transient EMS workers. Truth be told, once you get away from forums such as emtlife, there aren't too many that are interested in EMS degrees. There's no incentive as things stand at the present.

I agree with this statement, but I am still of the mind that in order for things to change, the degree will have to come first.

As for transients,

It is not that I wanted to leave EMS, I wanted to do more than I was doing. I wanted to call my own plays.

If I could do that in EMS I would not have left. As it stands the only people who really get to do that are doctors. So be it.

 

[Medic Tim]

I work in a system that is run by the government. It is the only ambulance/ transport service in the province. The equivalent of an emt I starts at 23 and change for a 37.5 hour week. Where I did my training in the USA the medics start at 10. I really have no idea how you can live off of that without working every waking hour. I like my 4on 4 off schedule. I don't know how long I would last working everyday for just above minimum wage.