Paramedics sued for not entering house with o2

[ExpatMedic0]

I found this interesting, paramedics where dispatched for a fall, upon entering find a pregnant women who also complains of shortness of breath. Patient is brought outside to ambulance and oxygen is applied. Paramedics are being sued for not entering the house with oxygen and delaying oxygen delivery until outside on the gurney (article states around 3-4 minutes)
Thoughts?

http://www.emsworld.com/news/11590454/lawsuit-accuses-paramedics-of-malpractice-in-phila

 

[OnceAnEMT]

Seeing as to how they contacted FD for a comment, I assume this is city of Philly EMS. I'm curious if its stated in their protocols anywhere what is required to be brought into the scene for certain situations (ie, what bags). Should O2 have been brought in? Obviously, yes. Perhaps it was just really poor judgement. 48 off without pay? They're lucky if their license isn't challenged.

About the "do your part" and "you need to sit up" comments. For one this is yet again another very one-sided article against civil services. Secondly, those comments, without context, are not exactly "rude". If I have a large Pt in the ED who is clearly being immature/uncooperative, my questions/requests turn into calm but firm orders. Personally, I consider that more polite than giving up and getting 3 teammates to assist in moving the Pt.

The article mentions the use of a stair chair, but then talks about a gurney, and "belting the head". Its things like this that wreck credibility. This whole story is second if not third hand account. Useless.

 

[vcuemt]

Anyone can sue anyone for anything.

This will go no where.

 

[medicsb]

I remember when the first occurred because it made the news back then. There's actually some video footage of them placing the patient onto the stretcher and then into the ambulance if I recall.

PFD has some weird policies about what to bring on to a scene. When I did my ride time with them, we rarely brought the monitor or oxygen. But, it was emphasized that we had to bring our drug bag.

Anyhow, with a severe pulmonary embolism that results in cardiac arrest, it's unlikely that an extra 8 minutes of O2 would have made a difference for the mother or the child. Right off the bat, mortality is as high as 60% for massive PE. I imagine it would be higher for a pregnant woman.

Though it doesn't sound like prehospital care was ideal, I don't think it is the proximate cause. Regardless, the city will most likely lose the case (it is Philadelphia after all).

 

[DrParasite]

Anyone can sue anyone for anything.

This will go no where.

you're right that you can sue for anything, but this suit won't go nowhere; the city will settle out of court with the family, to help minimize any more negative PR.

The problem is, and has been for years, that PFD EMS is incredibly understaffed, the :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: step child of the FD, and is frequently used as a taxi service by their residents, utilizing 2 ALS provider on every ambulance.

Rest assured, the medics will be used as scapegoats for this broken system, and the underlying issues won't be addressed at all.

 

[hogwiley]

I just don't understand the mentality. These Paramedics didn't kill this woman, a pulmonary embolism did. Where I'm from you're really lucky if an ambulance gets there in under 20 minutes, especially in the winter where you can often tack on another 5 to 10 minutes. Yeah ideally they should have had o2 with them, but does anyone think high flow o2 a few minutes sooner would have made a difference in the outcome?

As for them telling her to do her part and sit up, how is that unprofessional if they really did need to get her from point a to point b and doing that would have helped speed up the process? We don't have jedi powers, we cant levitate people onto a cot and into an ambulance. Is the issue that they didn't say please and thank you?

Do the family really think getting the patient into the ER a few minutes faster would have made a difference? What magical life saving procedure were they going to perform for a massive PE? Was she in cardiac arrest at that point?

Obviously they didn't do everything right, but I don't see anything blatantly negligent or malicious. Guess what public, not everything runs super smooth on a call. If people expect absolute perfection on every call then its time to get out of EMS. Unless there is more to this than what I've read this lawsuit seems like total BS to me. Misplaced grief and anger combined with the usual ambulance chasing opportunist lawyers.

 

[ILemt]

Agree with HOG.

 

[MarissaLynn]

Unfortunate, but not criminal in my opinion.

 

[atropine]

From the video all I can say without a doubt is that 1: the standards of this EMS agency seem low, and or 2: the two individuals who responded or low standard employees. I know not all are fire based ems supporters are on this site, but where I come from a big metro area in Los Angeles this would have not flown. The engine company and Rescue Ambulance crew have a set regiment and it would have been strictly followed, my money is on the family and I believe they will be well compensated on behalf of the city of Philly.

 

[Tigger]

From the video all I can say without a doubt is that 1: the standards of this EMS agency seem low, and or 2: the two individuals who responded or low standard employees. I know not all are fire based ems supporters are on this site, but where I come from a big metro area in Los Angeles this would have not flown. The engine company and Rescue Ambulance crew have a set regiment and it would have been strictly followed, my money is on the family and I believe they will be well compensated on behalf of the city of Philly.

How are you able to judge them exactly?

 

[atropine]

How are you able to judge them exactly?

First impression is how, I know I don't run into every call but I walk with some in intent, and just plan image. When people call 911 they want a triathlete who can handle there problem and I didn't see that in the video, shallow maybe, but again where I come from physical fitness and high standards are the norm if you kill someone but you look good doing it well unfortunately it might just be frowned upon instead of a lawsuit.

 

[chaz90]

First impression is how, I know I don't run into every call but I walk with some in intent, and just plan image. When people call 911 they want a triathlete who can handle there problem and I didn't see that in the video, shallow maybe, but again where I come from physical fitness and high standards are the norm if you kill someone but you look good doing it well unfortunately it might just be frowned upon instead of a lawsuit.

Uhh, what? Is this poster serious?

1. One shouldn't run into any call. Gradual and deliberate action is the goal, and running is the antithesis of what we should be doing.

2. People call 911 to have a triathlete come help them? News to me! Where I work, dispatchers answer the phone by asking if the caller needs "Police, fire, or ambulance?".

3. I haven't seen the video, so I don't know if you're actually judging these providers on their physical attractiveness, weight, fitness or some combination thereof. In any case though, seriously?!?! Are you trying to somehow justify that a supermodel Olympic athlete with a custom fit uniform would somehow change the facts of this case if they performed the exact same medical interventions? I'm utterly flabbergasted.


Furthermore, your profile says you hail from lovely Southern California. I'm not saying Philadelphia is the pinnacle of quality EMS, but for the love of all things holy please don't try to tell us SoCal EMS is known for it's high standards of care and competency in all things EMS.

 

[atropine]

Uhh, what? Is this poster serious?

1. One shouldn't run into any call. Gradual and deliberate action is the goal, and running is the antithesis of what we should be doing.

2. People call 911 to have a triathlete come help them? News to me! Where I work, dispatchers answer the phone by asking if the caller needs "Police, fire, or ambulance?".

3. I haven't seen the video, so I don't know if you're actually judging these providers on their physical attractiveness, weight, fitness or some combination thereof. In any case though, seriously?!?! Are you trying to somehow justify that a supermodel Olympic athlete with a custom fit uniform would somehow change the facts of this case if they performed the exact same medical interventions? I'm utterly flabbergasted.


Furthermore, your profile says you hail from lovely Southern California. I'm not saying Philadelphia is the pinnacle of quality EMS, but for the love of all things holy please don't try to tell us SoCal EMS is known for it's high standards of care and competency in all things EMS.

Agreed about the running, and yeah you should see the video, unfortunately this was just a bad outcome, but if you look like a slob then bad things can happen hell if you looked uniformed and professional the heat can still come your way "Micheal Jackson", but I'am just trying to compare this service to my service thats all, and if a big LA metro FD can have high standards then Philly should too, thats all. In my opinion its all in the presentation, and the family is going to well compensated because of these two knuckle heads who I can assure you would have not lasted the probation period where I come from.

 

[SandpitMedic]

Agreed about the running, and yeah you should see the video, unfortunately this was just a bad outcome, but if you look like a slob then bad things can happen hell if you looked uniformed and professional the heat can still come your way "Micheal Jackson", but I'am just trying to compare this service to my service thats all, and if a big LA metro FD can have high standards then Philly should too, thats all. In my opinion its all in the presentation, and the family is going to well compensated because of these two knuckle heads who I can assure you would have not lasted the probation period where I come from.

I have nothing to say but LOL. For reals dude?

You sound like a badass... teach me! Please.

 

[ffemt8978]

Knock it off!

 

[Handsome Robb]

One of the posters in this thread is the exact reason we can't have nice things.

These medics didn't kill her. O2 isn't a wonder drug and I highly doubt it would've changed the outcome in this case.

Unless it's very obvious I always ask patients if they can sit up for me and/or walk. I've got one back, just because you call 911 doesn't mean you're getting carried. Especially if you're perfectly capable of ambulating. If they say they don't think they can then we start looking at other options.

We don't run, ever, unless we're running away from something. Move with a purpose, absolutely, but running is a no-no. One, it looks extremely unprofessional. Two, it adds an element of chaos to the scene that we're supposed to be controlling and finally three, running makes it that much easier to trip, roll an ankle, tweak a knee or something similar. How does that help your patient when you hurt yourself and have to call for another unit to transport your patient?

I agree that first impressions are important but saying the general population expects a triathlete to respond to their call for help is absolutely asinine.

 

[atropine]

Uhh, what? Is this poster serious?

1. One shouldn't run into any call. Gradual and deliberate action is the goal, and running is the antithesis of what we should be doing.

2. People call 911 to have a triathlete come help them? News to me! Where I work, dispatchers answer the phone by asking if the caller needs "Police, fire, or ambulance?".

3. I haven't seen the video, so I don't know if you're actually judging these providers on their physical attractiveness, weight, fitness or some combination thereof. In any case though, seriously?!?! Are you trying to somehow justify that a supermodel Olympic athlete with a custom fit uniform would somehow change the facts of this case if they performed the exact same medical interventions? I'm utterly flabbergasted.


Furthermore, your profile says you hail from lovely Southern California. I'm not saying Philadelphia is the pinnacle of quality EMS, but for the love of all things holy please don't try to tell us SoCal EMS is known for it's high standards of care and competency in all things EMS.

I'm not sure I get the your sourthern Cali thing, 25k people just applied to work where I work and we have a very high standard a tough probation.

 

[Handsome Robb]

Southern California is generally at the bottom of the barrel, clinically, is what he means.

 

[STXmedic]

25k people know that LAFD pays really well. Don't feel too special, though. From what I hear, all of the major cities in California get that kind of large number of applicants. I know I sure as hell wouldn't want to be in EMS in SoCal.

 

[atropine]

25k people know that LAFD pays really well. Don't feel too special, though. From what I hear, all of the major cities in California get that kind of large number of applicants. I know I sure as hell wouldn't want to be in EMS in SoCal.

Its not so bad the $$ is good the pension is well funded and the weather is great, all in all not a bad place to work.