Ortho injuries

Veneficus

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Today I silenced the room (something I have a proclivity for, usually when pointing out something painfully obvious) full of neuro people in a discussion on steroid use in TBI.

The long and short of the hour long discussion was that there is no evidence showing steroid use significantly decreases ICP or brain edema in TBI.

The current recommendations do not reflect its routine usage in TBI.

However, a rather well respected neuro clinician was defending his practice of using it with the argument that patients relate feeling better when it is used, so by some unknown mechanism not accounted for in the research it must work.

Having picked a neurologist's brain yesterday about CT scanning syncope, I was asked to return the favor, which is how I got involved.

My answer is not really why I am writing, the process behind my answer is.

I was once taught by an orthopaedic traumatologist that the worst and most common mistake nonorthopods make is to look at imaging and only think about what they see.

In xray and CT, the most obvious thing seen is bone. In a head CT, it is bone, brain, and ventricals.

We have a tremendous amount of soft tissue covering the bones of our body. None of it shows up on an x-ray. Very little of it shows up on a head CT.

When you injure your brain, or anything else for that matter from a trauma, you injure soft tissue. (even in a concussion, there is arachnoid, pia, and dura matter involved)

So when you deal with ortho trauma, don't forget about that soft tissue. In a rough estimate, not including blood vessles, there are at least 6 layers of soft tissue between the outside world and your brain. Some very thick layers in front of your central and axial skeletal bones.

When you break any bone you damage soft tissue. Especially when that bone is broken by an external force.

That tissue, even at microcirculation levels, bleeds, and like in any injury there is an inflammatory response. That tissue is no less important than the bone or organ underneath it.

It has been demonstrated that in spinal injury, it is soft tissue swelling that occludes spinal arteries which leads to cord ischemia in the affected regions.

In extremities, it is this inflammatory response and swelling of soft tissue that creates or potentiates compartment syndrome.

In addition to pain, soft tissue injury can be debilitating. It is an error to think a sprain, strain, or tendon rupture is somehow less serious if a bone underneath it is not broken because the force was not great enough.

As you recall, even the force required to break a bone is variable not only on the elasticity of the bone, but also the angle, and surface area.

So, in my expert, professional opinion. If studies show steroids do not reduce ICP or brain edema, why is there clinical improvement in TBI patient symptoms with steroids?

Because it mediates the inflammatory response of all the soft tissue. Including Bradykinin.

See the forest from the trees, when a bone is broken, so is everything else around it to some degree.

Don't forget.
 

shfd739

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Agreed with the above.

Of all the broken bones I sustained in a car wreck 5 years ago..the soft tissue injuries are the only lingering issues now 5 years later.
 

Pneumothorax

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Agreed with the above.

Of all the broken bones I sustained in a car wreck 5 years ago..the soft tissue injuries are the only lingering issues now 5 years later.

Yup, bones heal or can be fixed. Soft tissue just gets really cranky and angry lol!
 

mycrofft

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I had an epiphany many years ago about this subject. In my days at Bedrock EMS the hospital tx for facial fx was pain meds (not NSAIDS), ice, surgery if needed, then more ice and pain RX.

I worked backfill at Travis AFB in 1991, we received two cases, in each a Marine was brought in with a tire iron, or a full wine bottle, brought forcibly across the upper lip causing underlying multiiple fx. Tx: surgery PRN, oral steroids, pain Rx (not NSAIDS), ice, elevated head of bed. Much faster recovery with less swelling and bruising.

And as we all discover, some types of "soft tisssue" injuries can take longer than a bone fx to heal, if the ever heal properly at all.

Can part of the spinal column momentarily dis-align say on impact, then be essentially replaced by ligaments, tendons and muscles,but the soft damage causing intravertebral edema has been experienced? (This happens in some foot and hand fx, the followup xray on day 2 post injury reveals injury not evident on day 1).
 

Aidey

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Mycrofft, I believe that is the etiology behind SCIWORA*, or spinal cord injury without radiological abnormality. However, I don't think these patients usually have an injury visible on follow up scans. It is most common in the cervical spine in children, because they are more elastic than adults. Basically it is blunt trauma + neurological deficits (either ongoing or transient) without any positive findings on x-ray or CT.


*Pronounced Ska-war-a
 

bigbaldguy

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I had an epiphany many years ago about this subject. In my days at Bedrock EMS the hospital tx for facial fx was pain meds (not NSAIDS), ice, surgery if needed, then more ice and pain RX.

I worked backfill at Travis AFB in 1991, we received two cases, in each a Marine was brought in with a tire iron, or a full wine bottle, brought forcibly across the upper lip causing underlying multiiple fx. Tx: surgery PRN, oral steroids, pain Rx (not NSAIDS), ice, elevated head of bed. Much faster recovery with less swelling and bruising.

And as we all discover, some types of "soft tisssue" injuries can take longer than a bone fx to heal, if the ever heal properly at all.

Can part of the spinal column momentarily dis-align say on impact, then be essentially replaced by ligaments, tendons and muscles,but the soft damage causing intravertebral edema has been experienced? (This happens in some foot and hand fx, the followup xray on day 2 post injury reveals injury not evident on day 1).

Mycrofft, I believe that is the etiology behind SCIWORA*, or spinal cord injury without radiological abnormality. However, I don't think these patients usually have an injury visible on follow up scans. It is most common in the cervical spine in children, because they are more elastic than adults. Basically it is blunt trauma + neurological deficits (either ongoing or transient) without any positive findings on x-ray or CT.


*Pronounced Ska-war-a

Wow I actually got most of that. These books I've been using as a pillow must be working.
 

mycrofft

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So, aka "shaken baby syndrome" etc.

I guess keeping Gray's Anatomy on my toilet tank worked too!

That sort of delay is an argument against mobilizing imaging to the field, sort of like how they stopped sending Lixiscopes up in the space shuttle? (Or did they?).
 
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Veneficus

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So, aka "shaken baby syndrome" etc.

I guess keeping Gray's Anatomy on my toilet tank worked too!

That sort of delay is an argument against mobilizing imaging to the field, sort of like how they stopped sending Lixiscopes up in the space shuttle? (Or did they?).

Just my opinion, but i think that the injuries in shaken baby are far more grusome.

Especially the holes in the brain after the liquifactive necrosis if they live.
 

mycrofft

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That's just the focal necrotic lesions from their parents' PCP. (Just to make light of a serious and sad subject...).
 
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Veneficus

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"I need to be shaken like I need a hole in the head" :)
 

mycrofft

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Anyway....

Safe temporary immobilization can be of benefit for soft tissue injuries as well as frank fx's. Lacerations with bandages tend to clot faster if they are immobilized. How about external compression (to immob and reduce swelling, with due regard for compartmentalization)?
 
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Veneficus

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Why do you want to reduce acute swelling of an ortho injury with compression that doesn't affect the airway?
 

mycrofft

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Airway?

Just asking. In minor owies, along with coolth, it seems to reduce pain and hastens later recovery, unsure if the risks of compartment syndrome are worth the possible benefits of preventing third-spacing of blood and soft swelling in the region affected.
 
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Veneficus

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Airway?

Just asking. In minor owies, along with coolth, it seems to reduce pain and hastens later recovery, unsure if the risks of compartment syndrome are worth the possible benefits of preventing third-spacing of blood and soft swelling in the region affected.

I would think the compression created by swelling would cause pain?

Certainly reduction of swelling would reduce pain, but I am not sure compression is the best solution for it.

Perhaps restricting inflammatory mediators by reducing circulation to the area plays a role?
 

mycrofft

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Dunno. Probably ought to have put that in your home remedy thread.
 

Akulahawk

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I would think the compression created by swelling would cause pain?

Certainly reduction of swelling would reduce pain, but I am not sure compression is the best solution for it.

Perhaps restricting inflammatory mediators by reducing circulation to the area plays a role?
Vene, the compression is done to limit the local tissue swelling. What I used to do for ankle injuries (as an example) is put two horse-shoe pads on the ankle (one on each side), wrap with an ace bandage that also holds an ice bag on the side that's injured. Then I have the injured person lay flat on their back with the injured limb elevated at least 45 degrees, and usually closer to 90. They'd stay like that for about 20 min, get the ice off the limb, and then back to elevated for another 20-40 minutes. I'd ice on/off for about 20 on, and 40 off for the first 3 hours post injury.

After that, the instruction was to keep the limb elevated above heart level whenever possible, and keep the ace wrap on while awake. They were also to ice 3-4x daily for the next 2-3 days.

The resulting local swelling would be remarkably a lot less and there'd be a lot less pain reported... also usually there'd be good pain-free AROM and PROM in the affected ankle. If someone didn't follow those instructions, there'd be much swelling and nowhere near the ROM.

Typically I'd have my athlete back to play in 4-6 weeks post injury... if it was severe enough to pull them out from competition.

You want some action by those inflammatory mediators to begin the repair process, but not so much that you hinder the body's ability to repair things either. Less swelling and more mobilization within a pain-free ROM also helps prevent or at least limit deconditioning because you're not restricting all activity.

We normally didn't use NSAIDs or steroids in the first 48 hours post injury, relying on acetaminophen and ice for pain control (and mostly ice...) during that time period. After that, we'd switch to using NSAIDs and alternating heat/ice along with PT...

I was doing that stuff as a student and as an assistant athletic trainer since about 1992 or so.

People underestimate the abilities of ice/cryotherapy in pain and inflammation control. It does work really well...
 
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Veneficus

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Vene, the compression is done to limit the local tissue swelling. What I used to do for ankle injuries (as an example) is put two horse-shoe pads on the ankle (one on each side), wrap with an ace bandage that also holds an ice bag on the side that's injured. Then I have the injured person lay flat on their back with the injured limb elevated at least 45 degrees, and usually closer to 90. They'd stay like that for about 20 min, get the ice off the limb, and then back to elevated for another 20-40 minutes. I'd ice on/off for about 20 on, and 40 off for the first 3 hours post injury.

After that, the instruction was to keep the limb elevated above heart level whenever possible, and keep the ace wrap on while awake. They were also to ice 3-4x daily for the next 2-3 days.

The resulting local swelling would be remarkably a lot less and there'd be a lot less pain reported... also usually there'd be good pain-free AROM and PROM in the affected ankle. If someone didn't follow those instructions, there'd be much swelling and nowhere near the ROM.

Typically I'd have my athlete back to play in 4-6 weeks post injury... if it was severe enough to pull them out from competition.

You want some action by those inflammatory mediators to begin the repair process, but not so much that you hinder the body's ability to repair things either. Less swelling and more mobilization within a pain-free ROM also helps prevent or at least limit deconditioning because you're not restricting all activity.

We normally didn't use NSAIDs or steroids in the first 48 hours post injury, relying on acetaminophen and ice for pain control (and mostly ice...) during that time period. After that, we'd switch to using NSAIDs and alternating heat/ice along with PT...

I was doing that stuff as a student and as an assistant athletic trainer since about 1992 or so.

People underestimate the abilities of ice/cryotherapy in pain and inflammation control. It does work really well...

Thanks, this is good info.

I think it is specific to athletes though.

The patients and volume I have seen over the years, that amount of time and detail is just not practical.

If I spent a couple of hours dealing with swelling as you initially posted here, somebody would have my head.

On the average person, if the injury is less than 48 hours old, they get a single dose of steriods, some NSAIDS, a splint or wrap, and bounced back into life with the instructions heat/cool, elevate as they can, come back in 7 days for follow up.

Maybe some heavier pain meds for after work if they tell me they will be using the extremity.
 

mycrofft

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And eat lots of RICE. Brown or white?:cool:
 
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