Is EMT/PHEMS Seen As "Low Hanging Fruit"?

[EpiEMS]

We became self regulated

What do you mean by that?

I certainly would like to see more (higher) education requirements...maybe something like the Texas Licensed Paramedic as a first step - have an AAS in EMS or a BA/BS in anything else + a medic cert.

 

[terrible one]

+ 1
To the above. Education is a must to increase salaries.

 

[Medic Tim]

What do you mean by that?

I certainly would like to see more (higher) education requirements...maybe something like the Texas Licensed Paramedic as a first step - have an AAS in EMS or a BA/BS in anything else + a medic cert.

pulled from the web

Self regulation recognizes the maturity of a profession. It honours the special skills, knowledge and experience that a profession possesses.

Self-regulation means that the government has delegated its regulatory functions to those who have the specialized knowledge necessary to do the job. The granting of self-regulation acknowledges a profession’s members are capable of governing themselves.

Other self-regulated professions include nurses, doctors, chartered accountants, engineers and lawyers.

The power of self government

A self-regulating organization is the licensing body responsible for setting educational, technical and ethical standards.

Generally speaking, the power of self-government has two aspects:
•the power to license
•the power to discipline.

The self-regulating organization sets and maintains standards of competency and conduct. It supervises members and enforces those standards by disciplining members who fail to adhere to them.

Once a person has been admitted to a profession, the self-governing body has an ongoing obligation to the public to ensure that its members remain competent. They must also continue to meet professional and ethical standards.

The professional regulator’s duty to protect the public interest sets it apart from other organizations, such as professional associations.

In contrast, professional associations are voluntary membership-driven organizations. They are dedicated to furthering the economic, employment, professional and political interests of their members and advocating on their behalf. As a general rule, they neither discipline nor license their members.

 

[EpiEMS]

Self regulation recognizes the maturity of a profession. It honours the special skills, knowledge and experience that a profession possesses.

Gotcha. I looked through the competency profile on the website of theParamedic Association of Canada, and it clarified a couple of things for me.

 

[Carlos Danger]

the sit here and listen to people say that increasing education wont increase salary is ridicules to me. I have seen it with my own eyes

From a previous thread:

Unfortunately, the idea that increased education automatically equals increased pay is false. Increased education makes you more valuable only if it increases your productivity.

Ever wonder why someone with a master's degree working at Walmart or Mcdonald's makes the same as their co-workers with a GED? It's because your employer doesn't pay you for your education, they pay you for your productivity.

So, if your increased education means you can be more productive for your employer, you will be more valuable to them, and they will pay your more.

However, if your increased education doesn't enable you to do things that will allow your employer to bill at a higher rate, your employer will probably not pay you more. This is exactly why a paramedic's pay doesn't go way up when they finish their BS in physiology or nursing.

This partly explains why EMS agencies like to be "paramedic level" and are willing to pay paramedics more than EMT's, even though the vast majority of transports can be safely handled by an EMT. It's because the company can bill at a higher rate for many transports, even if those transports could've been safely handled by a basic. Charge 50% more for many of the transports you do, yet pay your employee just a few dollars more per hour? Sure, increasing education from EMT to paramedic is a great deal for the employer. But ONLY because they can bill more.

 

[terrible one]

Because EMS requires little training, there is usually a large supply of applicants relative to the available positions

Unfortunately, the idea that increased education automatically equals increased pay is false. Increased education makes you more valuable only if it increases your productivity.

Little hypocritical?

Increasing education automatically decreases the number of applicants thus disproving your previous statement.
I'm not oblivious to assume that if all of a sudden an AS or BS education in paramedicine will guarantee six figures salaries. However, who do you think is going to take on community paramedicine? The current standards will need to be increased. Once employers figure out how to bill for non-transports involved in community paramedicine calls you will see an increase in the standards and education.

 

[CriticalCareIFT]

From a previous thread:

Generally speaking increased education will ultimately equate to higher pay it will most likely require you to move to a different position, or different field of work.

People with Masters degrees need to look for gainful employment in the field they got their degree and not work in McDonalds and they will get compensated adequately. If a MD got a job at McDonalds should he get physician salary working flipping burgers?

To state that higher education does not correlate with salary is folly, it does however would require your to move to a different field of work.

 

[mycrofft]

More tinder.

1. Maybe ALS is not showing as great an improvement over BLS because BLS is more prone to get the pt in quickly versus ALS "staying and playing"?

2. Maybe ALS is not showing as much superiority because the science is not there so the measures are not effective (yet). (CPR is becoming more science based and survival to hospital figures are rising).

3. So if most runs are not exciting emergencies, and the amount of trade will not support the expense, this sounds like the perfect case for civil service to take over, same as they do whenever a vital service is needed at a certain level of quality but will not pay for itself (e.g., sewers systems, elections, sextons). The ideal infrastructure already laid out to respond quickly is….fire dept. Oh, wait that's why they did it that way in 1970!

:unsure:

EDIT:
Personally, I think any of this including nursing needs MUCH more actual supervised and mentored experience…and I don' mean "Let's stick Lucy with the new guy" type mentoring.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

This is a good article related to much of what we have discussed http://www.ems1.com/ems-education/a...d-by-the-lights-get-a-degree/?fb_ref=homepage

 

[Carlos Danger]

Little hypocritical?

Increasing education automatically decreases the number of applicants thus disproving your previous statement.

I'm not oblivious to assume that if all of a sudden an AS or BS education in paramedicine will guarantee six figures salaries. However, who do you think is going to take on community paramedicine? The current standards will need to be increased. Once employers figure out how to bill for non-transports involved in community paramedicine calls you will see an increase in the standards and education.

No, it isn't quite that simple.

Supply:demand of a good (in this case labor) IS the primary driver of the value of that good (compensation).

But it isn't the only driver. You still can't charge more for your labor than it is worth to the person you are trying to sell it to. If you keep raising the price of your labor, the purchaser (employer) will figure something else out.

So, if all else was equal, and the number of paramedic positions remained constant, then requiring a degree probably would result in increased compensation.

However, because the value of your productivity hasn't increased (i.e., just because you have a degree doesn't mean that you can do more of value for your patients), there is going to be a serious rub in there.

In other words, if your employer can't bill more for what you do, how can they afford to pay you more? They might just hire fewer paramedics and run more transports BLS.

 

[triemal04]

However, because the value of your productivity hasn't increased (i.e., just because you have a degree doesn't mean that you can do more of value for your patients), there is going to be a serious rub in there.

In other words, if your employer can't bill more for what you do, how can they afford to pay you more? They might just hire fewer paramedics and run more transports BLS.

This is what needs to be looked at more when talking about increasing standards, or realistically creating a true national standard.

I think the benefits to wages would slowly come up with a degree being the required minimum, because employers could charge more, and could demand a higher reimbursement rate from both medicare and private insurers. The arguement of "the care that we are providing is important and complex, it takes a minimum of a XXX degree to know how to do it" holds much more weight than "the care we are providing is important and complex, it takes a minimum of....well...we don't know....but you have to go to school for a couple monthes at least. Or maybe more. And it might not be a school as such...and..." Right now medicare pays very little of the actual bill, and some private insurance companies will do the same. Why? Partly because there is no real standard for what we do, and anything even resembling one is pitifully low.

If it became the standard, and IF an agreement could be made that only degreed providers could bill medicare, it would also be easier to demand that employers pay more; there would be nobody else to do the job at that point.

 

[mycrofft]

To reiterate

3. So if most runs are not exciting emergencies, and the amount of trade will not support the expense, this sounds like the perfect case for civil service to take over, same as they do whenever a vital service is needed at a certain level of quality but will not pay for itself (e.g., sewers systems, elections, sextons). The ideal infrastructure already laid out to respond quickly is….fire dept. Oh, wait that's why they did it that way in 1970!

Overhead and risk make ambulance companies a less that perfect way to invest. They will ALWAYS end up trying to squeeze every nickel out of a dollar, and with so dark many candidates, personnel is going to be a major place to scrimp.

Someone mentioned medical school students working ambo part time: long and honored tradition, American Ambulance in Omaha (most;y IFT, RIP) not only had them working night shifts but provided each a room for a lucky few.