Interesting moral/ethical situation

[WuLabsWuTecH]

MMiz, so what you are saying is that if someone cheated on an exam for some class that isn't EMS (say calculus or poly sci?) that you don't care to hear about it?

Education is not only about the subject but about life lessons as well right?

 

[mycrofft]

So you get into the County EMS or are promoted to Grand Captain or something..

..and disaffected EMT Joe the Jukeoff calls a couple buddies and they all say they gave you or told you about the stolen tests.
That specific occurrence is a little unlikely (unless you're in a small jurisdiction) but if that would make you uncomfortable, then it was wrong.

Also, try this...maybe prior class stole tests, so instructor sets up sting and you buy it. Same deal...not likely, not a noble test, but still a litmus test for right or wrong.

 

[Ridryder911]

Part of EMS and the problems associated is that we lack the integrity and ability to things the right way. We much rather take short cuts, abbreviated courses, have pseudo multiple levels and then we wonder why we are not respected and paid as a professional. Sorry, there are too many idiots make through the cracks already. Not enough screening process allows undesirables into the system as it is.

This is a NO brainer. Turn the half arse lazy students in. NO they don't deserve to be in EMS. If their character or lack of allows them to cheat in class what type of employee and medic would one think they would be if they were ever able to pass the cert examine?

As an instructor I like to know what students cheat in other classes, yes I will rat out any cheaters for instructors to watch and for me to be aware of. Cheaters next to liars is one of the lowest forms of humans.

R/r 911

 

[mycrofft]

Cheaters and arsonists.

And EMT's with prostitutes who are or aren't their wives.
Been a long evening.......:wacko:

 

[mycrofft]

PS: Could be worse.

I took an excellent microbiology course aimed at health professionals in 1980. Within two weeks some preppie seven years my junior wanted me to do her homework for her and acted p.o.'ed when I politely told her no. Then people started stealing each others' workbooks and tampering with their experiments (we had access to the lab eighteen/seven, often without supervision, not like nowadays). We were eventually forced to take our finals in groups of twenty (class was 260-odd) with paid proctors. Darndest thing was that tampering and such was useless, no curve grading, it was just perverted pathological self-interest in those pre-YUPPIES.

 

[BossyCow]

I generally allow karma to meet out the consequences of poorly chosen actions rather than tattling to the instructor. But I also would not have *****footed around the topic when approached by the students with the test. Telling them no when asked is part of establishing moral boundaries. Sad that this was a gray area instead of a black and white, right and wrong issue.

 

[mycrofft]

Black, white, gray..we draw the lines we color within.

(Where did that come from?).
I like Jody Foster/Dr Arroway's line about "fair" to Tom Skerrit's Dr Drumlin in the movie "CONTACT".

 

[Robby1974]

Karma

I generally allow karma to meet out the consequences of poorly chosen actions rather than tattling to the instructor. But I also would not have *****footed around the topic when approached by the students with the test. Telling them no when asked is part of establishing moral boundaries. Sad that this was a gray area instead of a black and white, right and wrong issue.

Well, I think I did allow "karma" as you said to meet out the consequences of this student's actions. I didn't name names when I brought it to the attention of the instructors assistant and I DID refuse the test. This resulted in the student not being able to continue on in the Intermediate class (because he was unable to pass national registry) and the instructor now has more protections in place for future classes. So from my perspective I did something very close to what you would have done. I did something about it without "tattling" on specific students.

 

[BossyCow]

Well, I think I did allow "karma" as you said to meet out the consequences of this student's actions. I didn't name names when I brought it to the attention of the instructors assistant and I DID refuse the test. This resulted in the student not being able to continue on in the Intermediate class (because he was unable to pass national registry) and the instructor now has more protections in place for future classes. So from my perspective I did something very close to what you would have done. I did something about it without "tattling" on specific students.

The difference is that when initially approached, you had to think about it. I would have said.. "No, I do not want to cheat thank you."

 

[Robby1974]

Never said that

The difference is that when initially approached, you had to think about it. I would have said.. "No, I do not want to cheat thank you."

I said no immediately. I had to think about how or if I should approach the instructor.

My Quote "Later that day a fellow student approached me and asked if I wanted a copy of the test to study by. I asked him how he got ahold of the test and he indicated that another student had taken it and made a copy while we were reviewing our answers after tests were graded. It turned out that this student had made copies of all of our weekly quizzes (5 total up to that point). This ended up being quite the conundrum for me as I was forced into a situation where I felt I had to approach the instructor but if I did approximately 10 students could be dismissed. "

guess I could have worded that better

 

[Ridryder911]

I have found administration is getting very lax about cheating as well. Even when brought face to face. Fortunately, either I will push the area or can assure the student that they will not pass and assure the administration I will NOT sign the license and registry registration....hence they may not fail the course but will not have passing results. This has only happened once and after my stand did expel the student.

EMS is a small community and those that cheat and take other measures is labeled and will find out it is better to do the right thing.


R/r 911

 

[MMiz]

MMiz, so what you are saying is that if someone cheated on an exam for some class that isn't EMS (say calculus or poly sci?) that you don't care to hear about it?

Education is not only about the subject but about life lessons as well right?

I don't necessarily need to know if one of my students was caught cheating in another class. Do I catch students cheating? Absolutely, on every test. In addition to following district protocol on disciplinary action, forever in my mind that student is a cheater.

If I allowed my students to tell on other students for every minor incident then I wouldn't be able to teach. There will always be cheaters, that's life. It's my job as a teacher to teach a student why cheating is not a good choice, reward good choices, and punish bad ones, but I don't want to hear from another student about a student cheating. I don't want to necessarily hear about it unless it's something serious and another person's life or well being is at risk.

Today during class a student dropped off a note on my desk saying "Student x is chewing gum." What would you do?

 

[MMiz]

I have found administration is getting very lax about cheating as well. Even when brought face to face. Fortunately, either I will push the area or can assure the student that they will not pass and assure the administration I will NOT sign the license and registry registration....hence they may not fail the course but will not have passing results. This has only happened once and after my stand did expel the student.

EMS is a small community and those that cheat and take other measures is labeled and will find out it is better to do the right thing.


R/r 911

It's absolutely absurd how lax our district policy is on cheating. Things we can't do:
1. Rip the assignment in two
2. Put a zero on the assignment while the student is working on it.
3. Give the student a zero for the assignment or the course (even at the high school level).

A teacher is required to give the student a re-test the following day with no diminished point value or credit.

 

[Code 3]

I have found administration is getting very lax about cheating as well.

I don't see that down here at all. In fact, you'd be happy to know that it's quite the opposite where I live. Community Colleges and State Universities are now requiring teachers to have the school's plagiarism policy clearly written on the course syllabus. In addition, instructors will read the policy out loud to the entire class and to make sure they understand it's a zero tolerance policy. Pretty much if you cheat or even didn't cite work properly in a paper, you will be failed... no questions asked. Obviously, this is a case by case basis and not the national standard. There's still some hope out there!

 

[WuLabsWuTecH]

In HS we were told that caught cheating once = 0 on assignment. caught cheating twice = repeat the class. teachers couldn't be physical and tear things up but were allowed to be more leinant if they thought it could be used as a teaching experience. In more severe cases it would also mean notation on transcript.

As a member of the Univeristy Judical Board at my current institution, we take cheating and academic intregrity very seriously. The UJB is the only board with power to suspend or expel students, but we haven't heard a case in the past year (since I was appointed) for academic intergrity as anyone that it has happened to has left the university after the Dean's Council hearing as they know that the UJB will most likely dismiss them very quickly. Especially at a research institution, but anywhere else, if you cheat once, what credibility do you have in the future?

 

[phabib]

I don't see that down here at all. In fact, you'd be happy to know that it's quite the opposite where I live. Community Colleges and State Universities are now requiring teachers to have the school's plagiarism policy clearly written on the course syllabus. In addition, instructors will read the policy out loud to the entire class and to make sure they understand it's a zero tolerance policy. Pretty much if you cheat or even didn't cite work properly in a paper, you will be failed... no questions asked. Obviously, this is a case by case basis and not the national standard. There's still some hope out there!

We had the same policy. Added to that our instructor made it very clear that any disrespect shown to guest instructors would also be grounds for immediate dismissal from the program.

I guess it just depends on where you are. I actually prefer studying at those types of institutions. The weak get weeded out quicker (because honestly, if you need to cheat you're not smart enough to get away with it) and those who want to learn stick around.

 

[Shabo]

I dont agree that this would be a "minor" incident.

"this student had made copies of all of our weekly quizzes (5 total up to that point)."

Chewing gum in class, not polishing your boots, O.K. Taking quizzes out of the room and making copies for distribution. That to me is in a completely different class due to the forethought and planning involved. This type of thing undermines the future integrety of the quizzes and of the class. This absolutly warrants a dissmissel for anyone distributing and at a minimum probation for anyone accepting the quizzes.


Shabo