Have a labor law question

[ASTMedic]

I work in northern Calif for a private ambulance and need some clarification on the labor laws dealing with breaks and meal time.

Right now we get no breaks or set meal time. If we are able to make it to a place to get food, order, and get food before running a call or moving for coverage then its a good day. Sometimes we dont get any down time other than the 5-10 min at the hospital doing paperwork other days are slow. I run between 6-10 calls in a 12hr shift on somedays and may not get down time for 6hrs. I'm getting paid normal for 10hrs and double after 12. We get paid for our lunch hour but I saw that Calif law gives you another hour if you worked with out a break. I looked all over but cant find any info. What does the law say for EMS?

Sorry it was so long but I wanted there to be no questions needed.

 

[JJR512]

I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. I do not live or work in California. That said, I have researched your question, and believe I may have found something useful.

It appears that if you work at least five hours in a day, you are to be given at least 30 minutes for a meal. If you work more than ten hours per day, you are to be given two meal periods of at least 30 minutes each. However, it is difficult to assess if these meal periods should be paid. The law seems to require that the meal periods are paid if the employee remains "on duty" or if the employer requires the employee to remain on the premises. One could make the argument that unless you are allowed to leave your ambulance and go home to eat, you are still on your work premises; one could also argue that if you have a call lined up for you, you are still on duty. But the issue of if the meal period should be paid or not is getting beyond my ability to clearly comprehend at 3:00AM.

http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/FAQ_MealPeriods.htm

 

[ASTMedic]

Thanks for the research.

Thats what I also found but I was wondering if I have a legal leg to stand on when it comes to the fact that many times we go long times without getting a true meal. They are paying us for all of the hours but we just never seem to get any time to eat.

I also saw that we should get an extra hour for working through lunch on top of the hour of pay during lunch.

 

[Asclepius]

Welcome to EMS. You know longer work in a conventional work setting. You are at the mercy of the needs of your service area. Sometimes that means you get some down time and others you don't. I don't know what the laws say about it, but I can tell you that what you're describing is the norm for EMS. It is what it is.

 

[Flight-LP]

Thanks for the research.

Thats what I also found but I was wondering if I have a legal leg to stand on when it comes to the fact that many times we go long times without getting a true meal. They are paying us for all of the hours but we just never seem to get any time to eat.

I also saw that we should get an extra hour for working through lunch on top of the hour of pay during lunch.

Your employer is doing no wrong. If you are being paid while on duty and it is consistant with either FLSA or the railway labor act, then that's the end of that conversation. You are not entitled to extra pay for "losing" lunch. Whether you eat or not has no relevance on the federal labor laws, sorry. As others have said, welcome to EMS!

 

[oldschoolmedic]

A point to consider

If you are available for a call during your meal time, as opposed to being completely out of service, you are then to be compensated for that time as well. The same can be said for "sleep" times being deducted.

One county I worked for was successfully sued because we were being paid for 14 out of 24 hours of the work day. They were deducting 8 hours of pay for sleep time, then 2 hours total for meals. Unfortunately for them this was illegal and they ended up having to cut us rather large compensatory checks for lost wages and penalties. Rather than face the same lawsuits, the surrounding counties changed their pay systems to get in line with the federal labor guidelines of OT after forty hours a week, and no more deductions for meal or sleep times.

Look into how you are classified as an employee to see whether or not you fall under the public safety exemptions of the US labor codes. These codes (7K exemptions)have to deal with fire and police exemptions for pay and overtime, NOT ems unless they are performing dual duties.

Remember always tote a snack. Don't order sit down food, the buffets and fast food are your best bets. Anything that can be folded (except tacos, they drop stuff) is also good for driving code. I hope your employer sees the light becuase it sounds like too big and busy a service to be nitpicking pennies from their employees checks.

 

[medic417]

:sad: If you study the labor laws that relate to EMS (most are actually based on fire:wacko you will find that we are exempted from regular federal labor laws(some states have strictor rules). Did you know that a service can make you work 106 hours each 2 weeks before you are required to recieve overtime? It is also assumed, sadly not accurately, that you will get enough down time to get meals and breaks. You can contact your state labor division and get the correct answer for your state.

 

[ASTMedic]

Thanks for the responses everyone.

Everything that you are all saying is nothing new to me. I've been on an ambulance or working fire for about 7 years but we're just SO busy now that we can't get a decent meal. (I should own stock in granola bars) I ran 9 calls in 6hrs the other night to give you an idea. They also limit our "area" while posting depending on coverage to the point that sometimes it's McDonalds or nothing.(Not having that)

I looked all over but about the only thing I could find info on was OT laws for EMS. So I figured I'd come to you guys/gals. Thanks

 

[JJR512]

Welcome to EMS. You know longer work in a conventional work setting. You are at the mercy of the needs of your service area. Sometimes that means you get some down time and others you don't. I don't know what the laws say about it, but I can tell you that what you're describing is the norm for EMS. It is what it is.

And if we all settle for "it is what it is" we'd be all of us wearing white wigs and paying taxes to England. In a court of law, if one party says, "This is how we've always done it," and the second party says, "The law says something else," then the second party is going to win.

Your employer is doing no wrong. If you are being paid while on duty and it is consistant with either FLSA or the railway labor act, then that's the end of that conversation. You are not entitled to extra pay for "losing" lunch. Whether you eat or not has no relevance on the federal labor laws, sorry. As others have said, welcome to EMS!

I have skimmed the intro to the Railway Labor Act and it appears to concern labor standards to employees of and related to rail carriers, therefore I do not see how it applies to EMS workers.

As for the FLSA, it exempts certain types of employees from the regular wage & hour and overtime regulations. The exempted employees are of the "white collar" variety. Furthermore, the FLSA explicitly does not exempt EMS workers:

New section 541.3(b) states that the exemptions do not apply to police officers, fire fighters, paramedics, emergency medical technicians and similar public safety employees who perform work such as preventing, controlling or extinguishing fires of any type; rescuing fire, crime or accident victims; preventing or detecting crimes; conducting investigations or inspections for violations of law; performing surveillance; interviewing witnesses; interrogating and fingerprinting suspects; preparing investigative reports; and similar work.

(http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/fedreg/final/2004009016.htm)

Finally, the FLSA cannot be reduced or waived by state law, but can be exceeded. The California law I referenced earlier seems to provide a fairly clear answer to the original question.

Ultimately, this is an issue that should only be definitively answered by a practicing California lawyer. If you wish to find out whether or not you do have a valid claim to pursue, I'd suggest contacting both a private attorney as well as the state's department of labor (you should be able to find an appropriate representative to contact at the website linked to in my previous post). Do yourself a favor and do not discuss your research with your employer until if/when you consult an attorney, then have your attorney do your talking for you.

 

[fyrdog]

I know of two private companies in Connecticut that had to compensate employees who were "clocked out" for meals and breaks. this was due to the fact that there were no specific request by the employee for meals/breaks and there was no documented meal/break time. Both companies just deducted the hours based on the meal/break laws. This occurred even if the crews worked through meals/breaks. FLSA doesn't buy "There was down time sometime during the shift." statement. Some of the employees received several thousand dollars because FLSA reviewed 5 years of time records.

Basically if they pay you through meals/breaks there is no problem on the companies part.

Note - My mother worked for FLSA and handled much of the paperwork on the above cases.

 

[Flight-LP]

Basically if they pay you through meals/breaks there is no problem on the companies part.

Exactly...........

I have skimmed the intro to the Railway Labor Act and it appears to concern labor standards to employees of and related to rail carriers, therefore I do not see how it applies to EMS workers.

The RLA applies to most EMS flight crews on aircraft operating under 14 CFR Part 135 (i.e. commercial operations). Most flight crews are considered "exempt" under FLSA due to this exemption and as such, are not required to be compensated for overtime.

 

[JJR512]

Ahh...sorry, I was talking about ground-based ambulances, because I assumed that's what the original poster was referring to.

 

[ASTMedic]

Yes I was talking about ground transport. I am just looking to see if I can push the issue a little about breaks. Our call volume has jumped a butt load over the past year or so and they are doing nothing to help us out. We work 13,14,15 hr days and and they keep taking away the little perks from us. We can't even stop for food after an out of town transfer.

 

[Flight-LP]

Have you considered employment elsewhere? If your company is not meeting your personal basic needs of safety (i.e. food), then maybe its time to look elsewhere. I take it by your last post that you workl for a private company. Are most of your runs transfers?

 

[ASTMedic]

Yes private ambulance. No we run about an equal number of both. We're all 911 units and just take both transfers and 911.

Ya I'm looking into other jobs. Just dont feel like giving up a 3 min drive to work.

 

[medic417]

Yes private ambulance. No we run about an equal number of both. We're all 911 units and just take both transfers and 911.

Ya I'm looking into other jobs. Just dont feel like giving up a 3 min drive to work.

3 minute drive. It is a 2 and a half hour to my main station. I also have a station I am assigned occasionally to that is 3 anda half hours away.

But I do think you need to find a new job. You could contact federal labor board and try and get things investigated. Honestly though you would probably be pissing into the wind.

 

[JJR512]

It's a difficult situation you're in. You have a job very close to home, and you know this is EMS and you run 911 calls, and I'm sure you'd agree with me that when a 911 call comes in, you stop whatever else you're doing and go handle that immediately. Eating or not, labor laws or not.

I know from my own private ambulance experience it can be difficult to feel the same way about transfers or the other more routine non-911 apsects of the job. But I keep reminding myself of something that happened recently. I came into a county hospital with a very busy ED (usually ~three county 911 medic units sitting outside), and there was a line of county crews with patients on their stretchers. Some had been triaged and were waiting for rooms, some were still waiting to be triaged. So my partner and I came into the ED with an empty stretcher and several of them said things to the effect of, "Oh good, such-and-such is here!" We found our assigned patient and got her on the stretcher as quickly as possible, for I had heard a triage nurse directing traffic, telling one county crew that as soon as we got our patient out, and the room was cleaned, they could put their patient in that room.

So my point is that the commercial/private ambulance part, the so-called routine transfers, may not seem as glamourous, important, or urgent, but try to remember that by taking someone out of the hospital, you're making room for someone else to come in. So these types of calls should be treated with the same sense of urgency, really.

Still, you need to eat to keep energy levels up. Personally, I bring sandwiches and snacks in a cooler and eat on the move (unloaded, of course!). If I don't bring food, we stop at a fast-food restaurant, and eat that on the move. My advice is to bring food: This will be cheaper, probably healthier, and you won't have to worry that you won't get a few minutes to go buy something to eat or that when you feel like eating you won't be near a place to buy something.

I additionally recommend you discuss this problem with the management of your company. However, be sure to approach the issue like it's a problem you'd like to work with management to help resolve. Don't go to your boss and tell him what you think the law is and demand they comply with it.

 

[Ridryder911]

I have dealt with this before. The only way to really see what is in violation is to contact FSLA and have them investigate. One would then have to make a formal complaint ( it is anonymous) and determine on the ruling if the employer is violation or not.

I was at a company that had to pay back over two years of overtime back to me, (since they only go back two yrs. further back is upon the requester). Many EMS assume they are compliant, it is hard to determine since EMS is exempt from many of the national standards (ground or air). Yes, EMS is a LOT different from any other employers.

If you do not take action, some one else will hopefully later, yet how many medics will be gone through. Sounds like lousy management whom don't give a damn about their employees or patients. If they did they would allow appropriate break time and enough units to meet the needs of the company.

R/r 911

 

[ASTMedic]

It's nice to hear it's not just us (I've know that for a while). I understand that taking the transfers is just as important as the 911 I really do. The big problem that we as employees have is that they dont give a Sh**. They took a unit out of the daily rotation a few years back to save money and with the higher 911 call volume some of the shifts (almost) never get off on time. They give transfers out till we have one unit covering a very large response area (1233 sq mi, 161,700 people, 8 units at peak time) and then we, the field crews have to run into the ER and drop pt off and run out because they have 911 calls holding.

I can understand if the area is just busy and that's it but they are swamping us with calls and working us late just to make the all mighty dollar. The employees dont have a leg to stand on since we're not union so we're at the mercy of the owner. Our ambulances are held together with duct tape and bubble gum and I cant get a new uniform due to money issues. The ER is filling its beds with walk in pts that used to sit in the waiting room but since they want to look better they go right to a bed. Oh ya we have jobs open if anybody is interested.

 

[medic417]

I have dealt with this before. The only way to really see what is in violation is to contact FSLA and have them investigate. One would then have to make a formal complaint ( it is anonymous) and determine on the ruling if the employer is violation or not.

I have wanted to file anonymous complaint for some time but everywhere I look requires my name and info. If I give that info it is no longer anonymous. Do you have a link to where to file w/o them knowing who filed?