First Responder

[Steveb]

I am 15 years old and I am wondering about being a first responder. If i witness a crash or some other emergency, would it be ok to place some flares in the road and go into the car and hold c spine? Assuming i have called 911, and the car isn't on fire or anything. Would it be ok to render aid to a witnessed event (following protocols of course) Also, what would happen after as far as documentation? And is it acceptable to stop at a crash (with injuries) where just police officers are on scene?

I also am 15 and am a FR go out and get it! Placing flares would be great. Also always ask if the person wants help. Holding C-spine is also great depending on where you are located you may be able to rule it out I am able to if EMS is more the 30 mins away. In terms of documentation it would pretty much be SAMPLE & PRP (pulse respiration pupils) to give to emt/paramedics.
Always remember EMCAP as a FR at a scene of a accident.
Environment (Isit safe or not)
Mechanism of injury( How was he hurt How does he appear to be hurt.
Casualties do you have them all accounted for .
Addition resources (911)
Personal Protective equipment (gloves)

 

[medickat]

good sam laws are no longer in my state (NJ) i think..

First of all, Good Sam IS alive and well in NJ.

I started in EMS when I was 16 in NJ and was on a "Cadet Corp" until I was 18. There were A LOT of things I wasn't allowed to do, which included getting into a car without the presence of senior members. If you're off duty and ESPECIALLY because you're a minor, I wouldn't do that for your own safety and for the reputation of whatever squad you are on.

 

[Cindigo]

I LOVE the internets. How awesome that 15 year olds have access to all of these brains and experience.

 

[Martyn]

OK, at the risk of getting my wrist smacked...WHY IS A 15 YEAR OLD WALKING AROUND WITH FLARES??? :wacko:

(BTW most of the EMR/FR's I work with have only done a basic 4 hour glorified first aid course, one I worked with a little while ago a) didn't even know how to hold C spine and b) didn't even know how to use a BVM)

 

[CBentz12]

Honestly if I witnessed a car crash I would simply put my hazards on get out my car walk up to the PT and ask them if they are experiencing any pain. If they say no I stay with them until EMS arrives just in case and if they say yes I would begin to ask where and etc... No need to be so technical about it with the road flares and reflection vest because who honestly carries these in their own vehicle. If you do cool but unless its a serious accident theres no need for flares and all you will do is back up traffic even more.

Oh and the if the car is drivable i.e. no fuel, oil or coolant leaking then tell them to pull into a plaza or on the side of the road. Nothing bugs me more then the people who get in a accident with the car still drivable and leave their car in the road while on the cellphone.

 

[Cindigo]

OK, at the risk of getting my wrist smacked...WHY IS A 15 YEAR OLD WALKING AROUND WITH FLARES??? :wacko:

What? You don't carry flares on your person?

Weird. h34r:

 

[KyleG]

I am 15 years old and I am wondering about being a first responder. If i witness a crash or some other emergency, would it be ok to place some flares in the road and go into the car and hold c spine? Assuming i have called 911, and the car isn't on fire or anything. Would it be ok to render aid to a witnessed event (following protocols of course) Also, what would happen after as far as documentation? And is it acceptable to stop at a crash (with injuries) where just police officers are on scene?

There are a few problems here. One a TC is a very unstable scene, if your on or off duty a TC is not the safest scene with or without flairs. If you feel comfortable and you can then I would say go for it. But just don't mess up. As for officers most cops have basic first aid and can help, unless you are an EMT (Im assuming not cause out here in SD, CA you have to be 18) then just leave it be. h34r:

 

[Steveb]

OK, at the risk of getting my wrist smacked...WHY IS A 15 YEAR OLD WALKING AROUND WITH FLARES??? :wacko:

(BTW most of the EMR/FR's I work with have only done a basic 4 hour glorified first aid course, one I worked with a little while ago a) didn't even know how to hold C spine and b) didn't even know how to use a BVM)

Wow Four Hours where I live It's a total of 56 hours and we know how to use BVM. It sucks that person gave you a bad impression of MFR.

 

[Jon]

if your on or off duty a TC is not the safest scene with or without flairs.

Click if you need explianation

I personally don't think flair belongs on a MVC scene at all... but to each their own.

 

[rwik123]

As a general rule of thumb IMO, ( I'm studying scene size up and the assessments module right now) if you come into an area of an MVC, you should look and smell for fuel leakage- as throwing flares down would not be the greatest of ideas in that scenario, plus you also have the possibility of downed power lines that could ignite fuel as well. I'd say if you were off duty or whatever the best bet would be find something reflective if you have it or just use a flashlight to direct traffic around the incident. even if you are uphill from it. You would be covered under Good Samaritan Laws; just make sure you stay there until someone shows up, otherwise you can still be liable for abandonment. Watch out for maintaining the c-spine too; you might do more damage to the patient than you are helping them without a KED extrication . If there are LEOs on the scene already; that is just an ethical judgement by you to stop or not; 9-10 times they are gonna tell you to move along anyways.
and also- just because the vehicle is not on fire when you arrive does not mean it wont catch fire later- constant scene size up. There wouldn't really be any documentation involved on your behalf other than stating your observations and procedures you did to the ones in charge of the scene.

veterans- am i right on this?

How would you do more damage by holding c-spine..and how would a ked prevent this damage created by initiating c-spine precautions?

Oh and i know how basic classes have a hard on for the ked but its hardly ever used in real life.

 

[Jon]

How would you do more damage by holding c-spine..and how would a ked prevent this damage created by initiating c-spine precautions?

Oh and i know how basic classes have a hard on for the ked but its hardly ever used in real life.

Why is it that EMS in your area doesn't use the KED? Laziness? Is it required equipment for your rig?

Then again, the lack of science on spinal immobilization means we don't have a good reason either way.

 

[Mountain Res-Q]

Why is it that EMS in your area doesn't use the KED? Laziness? Is it required equipment for your rig?

Then again, the lack of science on spinal immobilization means we don't have a good reason either way.

Yes, but if people are going to preach backboarding for anything fitting a predetermined MOI, then the "spinal immobilization" sure as hell should be done with 100% dedication. The KED is underused in many of the systems I have seen, a fact that I can only attribute to to a culture of laziness and ignorance that has been perpetuated. Research has shown that backboarding in general potentially causes more harm than good, so if the argument of EMS Folks is that "it is better to be safe than sorry" than use the damn KED, or else go with the research and find any way to "clear the spine".

 

[Bosco836]

Oh and i know how basic classes have a hard on for the ked but its hardly ever used in real life.

We use the KED quite a bit here, assuming the pt. meet's c-spine protocol and is hemodynamically stable.

The KED isn't very difficult to use, and arguably provides better c-spine control when extricating a pt. from a vehicle
(or virtually any other location where the pt. is seated). Overall, I think its an excellent tool - which, from the sounds of it, appears to be underused by many EMS services.

 

[Tigger]

Why is it that EMS in your area doesn't use the KED? Laziness? Is it required equipment for your rig?

Then again, the lack of science on spinal immobilization means we don't have a good reason either way.

Laziness for sure. Even when a supervisor or chief is on scene it does not get used which speaks volumes. I know that there is not a lot (if any) data supporting spinal motion restriction but anyone that's ever been in a KED knows damn well that it does a far better job limiting total body movement in an extrication, which to me is justification enough.

 

[Steam Engine]

I've always wondered if somehow securing the pt to the stretcher sitting upright, or to another seat in the ambulance with the KED in place, rather than transferring to a backboard wouldn't be a better approach in some cases. It would limit movement, and arguably keep them more comfortable. I know that personally I'd rather be KEDed than boarded any day.

 

[Mountain Res-Q]

I've always wondered if somehow securing the pt to the stretcher sitting upright, or to another seat in the ambulance with the KED in place, rather than transferring to a backboard wouldn't be a better approach in some cases. It would limit movement, and arguably keep them more comfortable. I know that personally I'd rather be KEDed than boarded any day.

Been there, done that, for a claustrophobic patient getting combative. Comfort in a KED sure beats thrashing around on a hard board.