EMT-P as M.D.

[Epi-do]

Generally speaking, EMS is poorly and under educated at best. Now someone thinks we should give medics a free pass to a shortened version of med school? Wow! If h#ll ever freezes over and something like that were to happen, I want to know who is a product of such a program so I can run in the opposite direction as quickly as possible.

 

[VentMedic]

I think somebody has been watching too many reruns of "Third Watch".

Just to be clear about something on the show, the medic they called "Doc" did not have M.D. or D.O. along with his EMT-P.

 

[mikie]

I think we're also neglecting the fact that MDs are hospital based, we (EMS) are prehospital. Difference there as well. I could go on but *yawn*

 

[Seaglass]

I know a bunch of premed students that work as EMTs (and one or two paramedics) while completing their BS. None of them think it's going to make medschool shorter, or even give them an edge. They're all doing it because it lets them know if they'll be able to stand a career in healthcare in general.

 

[fortsmithman]

If this were to happen then we get this.

 

[BruceD]

Hope I am not feeding a troll...
I'm wondering about the op's location, perhaps not north America?

OP be careful, do not confuse "years of education" with quality or quantity of information learned. Most md students will spend 8 to 12 hrs/ day studying after lectures and do that 5 or6 days per week for the first 2 yrs of school, then spend up to 80 hrs per week in the hospital until they get done with residency. Then they study at home when they aren't in hospital.

I applaud a desire to move beyond your level of training, but it shouldn't be done by dragging down educational requirements on other providers.

I wouldn't want to have a emt treat a family member's renal failure any more than I'd want a doctor to walk towards my car with the jaws of life.

 

[mperkel]

Lol

I just read through this whole thread and found it hilarious.

From what I have heard, most medical schools actually frown upon EMT-P as applicants. Basically they "unlearn" what you learned in Paramedic school and begin teaching you medicine from there.

I'm an EMT-B, working on my B.S., from there planning on Medical School. I did the EMT cert. to get experience in medicine, particularly Emergency. I love the interact and social skills gained and the extra money throughout my undergrad. But in no ways, will this shorter any medical school year, just might give me a slight edge on patient interaction and some terminology. I have learned and experienced so much more volunteering a few weeks in an ER then being an EMT for more than a year.

I must say it is worth it being an EMT, but if your set on medical school, go to a good 4-year school and take the required courses. There are no shortcuts in medicine, sorry.

 

[Jon]

You could always go out of the country and then take the USLME tests... I know someone who is going down that path... and it scares the s**t out of me.

 

[VentMedic]

Here are statements from a flyer I just tossed in the recycle bin:

RT to MD
Flexible distance learning MD program in your community
Weekend introductory course taught in the USA
Work while you study

Now taking applications for the August 2009 classes.

www.oceaniamed.org

 

[JPINFV]

If you want to go the Caribbean route, investigate your choices wisely. There are a lot of
'institutions' out there whose only concern is if your check cashes. The last thing anyone wants is to put 4+ years into an "education" and a few hundred thousands of dollars only to have a pretty piece of paper that no state will accept as an indication of a proper medical education education. Of course, most students who go to foreign medical schools never complete it anyways.

If anyone here is ever planning on the Caribbean route, for the sake of all that is good and holy stay with St. Georges, Ross, AUA, or SABA. Those are the ones that are eligable for US federal loans (Stafford and Plus) as well as accecpted in all 50 states.

 

[simpatico]

I can't honestly see Paramedic programs being anything more than a really interesting way to catch up on the "fundamentals of not letting people die" portion of medical school. There's just not enough education in a really good paramedic program to make it a fast-track for becoming a physician, much less your average paramedic program.

Interesting concept, though.

I am curious to know just how much being a paramedic helped out those who did go on to becoming a physician and a nurse. We've several nurses here, do we not??

 

[VentMedic]

I am curious to know just how much being a paramedic helped out those who did go on to becoming a physician and a nurse. We've several nurses here, do we not??

My degree in EMS only transferred the college level sciences which were just the prerequisites to apply to the RT program. I still had 2 years of RT core classes to complete for the Associates degree. I also had to relearn skills such as intubation to avoid shortcuts or bad habits and perform at a different level of expertise. Luckily I did have college pharmacology in PM school but still had to take two more semesters in the Associates program and two more when I got my B.S. in Cardiopulmonary. The few drugs a Paramedic is familiar with in the field does not even come close to what a med-surg LPN or RN or RRT must know.

So, except for providing some patient care knowledge, it can be a hindrance if one can not let go of the old and get on with the new which is why I questioned the OP putting EMT in front of PA or MD. If you hold on to "this is the way we alway do it" you will not go far in any profession you attempt.

Now for RNs or RRTs getting a Paramedic cert it is much easier since they have all the sciences and are accustomed to training for many different areas. We see this with our CCT and Flight RNs as they can get the cert with no problem and apply it effectively. After some of the other professional certs they must obtain and maintain in their career, the Paramedic is no problem. This is also why nursing has decided in many states to go with their own prehospital certification which builds off of their own education and doesn't repeat basic anatomy at a 10th grade level.

 

[Bloom-IUEMT]

Interestingly, I just found out that students at the PA program at Butler Univ. are required to do EMT basic training before starting so your idea of bridging EMT to PA is not unheard of....

 

[VentMedic]

Interestingly, I just found out that students at the PA program at Butler Univ. are required to do EMT basic training before starting so your idea of bridging EMT to PA is not unheard of....

According to their website they just encourage some health care experience. It is not considered a bridge. EMT carries the same weight as a licensed Massage Therapist (although that may be a compliment). You can be a lifeguard also and get just 2 points less.

http://www.butler.edu/cophs/index.aspx?pg=2081&parentID=2077-2041#a06

How many of these classes does the Paramedic certificate, as it stands now, have in common with the PA program?
http://www.butler.edu/cophs/index.aspx?pg=4552

Some colleges do have Paramedic B.S. degrees that prepare a student for the P.A. program. Loma Linda in CA is one of them.

 

[rmellish]

Interestingly, I just found out that students at the PA program at Butler Univ. are required to do EMT basic training before starting so your idea of bridging EMT to PA is not unheard of....

Actually, coming from a recent applicant to said program, this is absolutely false.

And it's not an EMT to PA bridge either.

 

[rmellish]

According to their website they just encourage some health care experience. It is not considered a bridge. EMT carries the same weight as a licensed Massage Therapist (although that may be a compliment). You can be a lifeguard also and get just 2 points less.

http://www.butler.edu/cophs/index.aspx?pg=2081&parentID=2077-2041#a06

Yes, very frustrating. However, two years of EMT street experience can equal ten points, or equivalent to paramedic with no experience. The average applicant has earned 8 points of "healthcare experience," however most of these are two week wonder course EMTs from Bloomington, or lifeguards with time on task.

How many of these classes does the Paramedic certificate, as it stands now, have in common with the PA program?
http://www.butler.edu/cophs/index.aspx?pg=4552

Absolutely none that I've found.

 

[daedalus]

You could always go out of the country and then take the USLME tests... I know someone who is going down that path... and it scares the s**t out of me.

I do not understand how this is possible??

 

[JPINFV]

^
I believe that Jon is referring to foreign medical schools.

 

[Bloom-IUEMT]

I stand corrected. I guess that explains why there are so many Butler students driving all the way down from Indy to take EMT classes

 

[rjddvm]

Well, I'm a veterinarian, not a physician, but the education level is the same, and veterinary medical school admission in the U.S. is actually more competitive than human medical school admission. Veterinary ER medicine is a specialty that requires a three-year residency even to be eligible to take boards.

I'm applying to paramedic school for this fall and have my interview in two weeks, but I'll keep working as a vet. So I can't speak for the paramedic curriculum yet, but I can say that the EMT-B anatomy and physiology was incredibly simple compared to the level we had to learn in veterinary school. We spent six weeks on the anatomy and physiology of the kidney alone.

Just an example. We learned in EMT class that there are "twelve cranial nerves", when there are actually twelve pair. That was all we needed to know. I believe in paramedic school we will have to know the names and general functions of each pair.

For my neurology class in vet school, which was an entire semester long, we had to learn the name of each pair; whether it was sensory, motor, or both; what areas were innervated by each pair; the route each pair took to the brain, including the names of all of the foramina through which they passed; and the area of the brain where the information was processed. We had to be able to look at sections of brain and identify all of the anatomical landmarks, and discuss in detail what each area or nucleus does.

That was ONE small part of ONE class during ONE semester. For three years we had full-time classroom, 15-20 credits per semester. It was like trying to drink from a firehose. I have about ten bookshelf feet of textbooks and twelve of notes. My dog and cat internal medicine textbook alone is 1400 pages long.

We were also taught how to "think like doctors". That meant we had to have a detailed understanding of the anatomy and physiology and biochemistry of every one of the body's systems, and be able to apply that knowledge to a clinical presentation of a patient who could be one of many species and who can't talk. To do that, we needed to understand biology, chemistry, organic chemistry, physics, genetics, biochemistry, etc., and we had to have that understanding going in to the very first day of class.

I could be wrong, and no doubt the paramedics here will correct me if I am, but I don't think paramedic school gives someone the background to enter that level of education. It's just a different way of looking at things. ER MDs are more than paramedics with more education--they have a whole underlying understanding of the human organism, based on their years of education, and they apply that to their cases.

It may not come into play during illnesses and injuries they see regularly, but when that big ol' zebra comes trotting down the hall, they have a whole base of knowledge and experience to draw on that they wouldn't have if they had gone directly from being paramedics to a limited ER MD-type training.

Having said all of that, I have a lot of respect for field medicine, and I love doing it. I volunteered at a Mississippi shelter after Katrina and just spent five days volunteering with 315 dogs who'd been seized from a "rescue". We had very few vets come to help, in a community where they are coming out of the woodwork, and several who showed up left almost immediately when they realized they'd be working in tents in a parking lot; with a lot of filthy, emaciated, barking dogs; tracking through mud; with no toys at all. They just couldn't handle working outside of their nice clean clinics.

I would imagine that some ER MDs would not handle field medicine very well either, outside of their comfort zone, without all of the fancy equipment and support staff. Crawling into a wrecked car and figuring out a way to strap the patient to a backboard might not be something they could do, but if EMS weren't there to get the patients to the hospital alive, the ER MDs wouldn't be able to do their thing.