concealed weapon carry

[AtlasFlyer]

There are more ways to defend yourself than *just* with a gun.

Guns have their place (I'm 100% pro gun rights and fully support FULL 2nd amendment rights), but the close quarters of the back of an ambulance is a challenging tactical environment. I'm not going to say a complete NO to EMS carrying, but there are alternatives that don't involve firearms in that situation.

ANYTHING is a weapon or a defensive mechanism, particularly in a close-contact situation. A pen, clipboard, laptop, the heel of your hand, elbows... No one is ever 100% completely safe, but for as useful a tool as a gun is (and that's what a gun is, a tool), it's not the right tool for every situation.

If you are going to CCW as an EMS worker, secure that weapon at ALL times, consider some close-quarters training, as pilots who participate in the FFDO program have to. A gun in the cockpit of an airliner is not a bad thing, but pilots in the FFDO program undergo specific training to learn how to best & safely utilize a gun in the close confines of an aircraft cockpit environment.

 

[Bullets]

I won't argue that it doesn't happen. However the vast vast majority of assault by fists don't rise to that level.


So your psych patient is resisting restraints and smacks you. You're going to back off and draw down on the patient? Shoot them if they continue to resist?

Hyperbole

You can't start shooting everyone that assaults you (I mean I guess you could make a case that you could). I have very little faith that firearms are going to prevent the majority of assaults that EMS is subjected to. If you are going to give EMS firearms and allow them to shoot people that assault them you also have to give them handcuffs and tasers. There has to be some escalating scale of force used, you can't just go from nothing to shooting people.

Hyperbole

Are you really prepared to shoot every drunk/psych/drugged out pt who doesn't comply when you pull a gun on them?

Hyperbole


Lots and lots of hyperbole in this thread

I have yet to see one post in this thread advocating EMS shoot anyone who looks at you funny or pisses you off on a bad day

Everyone who has presented an argument for EMS to carry a firearm has done so within the confines of appropriate force-on-force response

And ive yet to see a valid reason for denying someone who holds a valid CCW permit their right to carry when working, provided their employer allows it. The rules for carrying are the same whether you are working or not

 

[Aidey]

That wasn't hyperbole. It was a dead serious question. One of the core tenants of gun safety is to never point a gun at something/someone you aren't prepared to shoot.

Just because you are able to dismiss all the arguments against concealed carry in EMS doesn't mean they aren't valid. Guns are a poor self defense tool in the EMS setting. We operate in close quarters and the 21 foot rule applies. We go into a lot of places where you are not allowed to carry. And saying "they will never know" is beyond a crappy excuse to violate someone else's property rights.

 

[CFal]

I'm a big 2A supporter as well, but I feel that assigning PD to every call would be safer and more effective. Kind of like that old cliche "I carry because they don't issue me a police officer". Close quarters in the back of an ambulance would be a tricky situation to be with with a gun, but that also isn't the only place we can get assaulted, though it is probably the most dangerous.

 

[ffemt8978]

I'm a big 2A supporter as well, but I feel that assigning PD to every call would be safer and more effective. Kind of like that old cliche "I carry because they don't issue me a police officer". Close quarters in the back of an ambulance would be a tricky situation to be with with a gun, but that also isn't the only place we can get assaulted, though it is probably the most dangerous.

Who's going to fund the extra officers? As was already pointed out earlier in this thread, urban PD has enough call volume as it is, rural PD usually has an extended response time so suburban law enforcement would be the only situation where this would be viable.

 

[RocketMedic]

That wasn't hyperbole. It was a dead serious question. One of the core tenants of gun safety is to never point a gun at something/someone you aren't prepared to shoot.

Just because you are able to dismiss all the arguments against concealed carry in EMS doesn't mean they aren't valid. Guns are a poor self defense tool in the EMS setting. We operate in close quarters and the 21 foot rule applies. We go into a lot of places where you are not allowed to carry. And saying "they will never know" is beyond a crappy excuse to violate someone else's property rights.

That "rule" is more along the lines of "youre going to get hurt too", not an absolute. Today, my plan if I am attacked is massive, overwhelming blunt trauma delivered at close contact repeatedly until the threat is neutralized. Questionable in the extreme. A little 5- or 6- shot revolver or small semiauto turns that Beating for Life into a winnable situation for my partner and I.

 

[RocketMedic]

There are more ways to defend yourself than *just* with a gun.

Guns have their place (I'm 100% pro gun rights and fully support FULL 2nd amendment rights), but the close quarters of the back of an ambulance is a challenging tactical environment. I'm not going to say a complete NO to EMS carrying, but there are alternatives that don't involve firearms in that situation.

ANYTHING is a weapon or a defensive mechanism, particularly in a close-contact situation. A pen, clipboard, laptop, the heel of your hand, elbows... No one is ever 100% completely safe, but for as useful a tool as a gun is (and that's what a gun is, a tool), it's not the right tool for every situation.

If you are going to CCW as an EMS worker, secure that weapon at ALL times, consider some close-quarters training, as pilots who participate in the FFDO program have to. A gun in the cockpit of an airliner is not a bad thing, but pilots in the FFDO program undergo specific training to learn how to best & safely utilize a gun in the close confines of an aircraft cockpit environment.

You win this thread forever.

 

[AtlasFlyer]

You win this thread forever.

yay me.

 

[truetiger]

A gun would be an absolute last resort...reserved for a situation in which your life is in danger and you cannot escape it by any other means. CCW is intended for close quarters, notice the qualifying distance is 21 ft? Here in Missouri they also teach sightless self defense shooting.

Back in December an agency I work part time for experienced an on scene shooting. The crew responded to an unconscious person just outside of town. When they arrived on scene they noticed things didn't seem right. They requested law enforcement, which had about a 10 min eta. Law enforcement arrives, patient is loaded, and they begin treatment. As they prepared to depart the scene, 3 shots were fired, one striking a deputy sheriff in the neck. He was thrown in the back of the rig with the patient as his FTO attempted to secure the scene.

That crew was extremely lucky. They were lucky there were two deputies riding together, as one had just been hired and was on FTO, they were lucky the deputies had a relatively short eta for that county, and they were lucky they weren't held up before the deputies arrive. Motives behind the shooting are still kind of unclear. Either the man was angered by law enforcement showing up or another rumor has it he was baiting the ambulance to steal the narcs.

Now those of you against allowing EMS to carry, how do you explain to those crew members that there are other means to self defense? That man was armed with a 20g shotgun. If there had been only one deputy, now what? Who would of secured that scene while the deputy was loaded? What if he would of advanced toward the downed deputy/crew?

 

[Aidey]

So were the medics inside the amb or outside at the time of the shooting?

 

[truetiger]

The medic was in with the patient, the emt was around back telling the deputies they were departing for the hospital.

 

[Rialaigh]

A gun would be an absolute last resort...reserved for a situation in which your life is in danger and you cannot escape it by any other means. CCW is intended for close quarters, notice the qualifying distance is 21 ft? Here in Missouri they also teach sightless self defense shooting.

Back in December an agency I work part time for experienced an on scene shooting. The crew responded to an unconscious person just outside of town. When they arrived on scene they noticed things didn't seem right. They requested law enforcement, which had about a 10 min eta. Law enforcement arrives, patient is loaded, and they begin treatment. As they prepared to depart the scene, 3 shots were fired, one striking a deputy sheriff in the neck. He was thrown in the back of the rig with the patient as his FTO attempted to secure the scene.

That crew was extremely lucky. They were lucky there were two deputies riding together, as one had just been hired and was on FTO, they were lucky the deputies had a relatively short eta for that county, and they were lucky they weren't held up before the deputies arrive. Motives behind the shooting are still kind of unclear. Either the man was angered by law enforcement showing up or another rumor has it he was baiting the ambulance to steal the narcs.

Now those of you against allowing EMS to carry, how do you explain to those crew members that there are other means to self defense? That man was armed with a 20g shotgun. If there had been only one deputy, now what? Who would of secured that scene while the deputy was loaded? What if he would of advanced toward the downed deputy/crew?

Individual scenarios do nothing. You have to consider benefit and risk. For exmaple


A bomb went off at the Boston marathon (2 actually) exploding out of backpacks. I want a bomb squad on every call in a public place that has an unattended bag. I mean, there is always a potential risk of bomb....


It would be absurd to assume we could have that dispatched on every call. The cost is flat out to high, it just doesn't make sense (at least I hope it doesn't to you).


There is a cost to carrying a gun on duty, there is also a benefit, I just have not seen any evidence that the benefit OUTWEIGHS the cost. The majority of assaults that occur on EMS workers are by people that are not in their right frame of mind, these are not preventable if you have 36 guns with you (aside from shooting every one of those patients). I'm not sure that any of the homicides that happened in EMS in the past few years were really preventable in any way, most if not all of them were do to ambushes that having a gun would not help with at all.

Again, someone point me to some statistics, something about preventable homicides or something. I just don't see it...

I'm not anti gun....I'm pro good solution...Taser>Gun every day of the week in the back of an ambulance for injury prevention

 

[truetiger]

So if someone is not in their right frame of mind they are just free to do harm to us? Lethal force is not about frame of mind, it is about saving your own life. It is reserved for when all other methods have failed and it's you or him.

 

[Lamiae]

Which also puts your hand in a very weak position if things go to rodeo...

The problem with CC...with handgun carry period even, is that you generally can't present it fast enough when surprised at the distances EMS deals with people. I've done the drills, even against a world class speed shooter I can be on top of him before he can make a good move to the gun.

Law enforcement officers generally have their gun out of they think things may get hinky. Most CCW instructors advise the same. By far the best tool you have sits on top of your shoulders. Watch your surroundings, what you say and how you say it. That's done far more to protect me than a gun. Off duty is one thing, I can set my distance and choose the situations I get myself into. On duty is another.

This is a very good point and I just wanted to emphasize it.

As providers, our safety should always come first. You should never hesitate to call for LEOs on-scene if you suspect they are needed. As stated, the best protective item we have is our brain. The way I view asking for police support is the same way I view giving a pt Oxygen: if the thought crosses my mind, then I do it, no hesitation. On a call, if you have even a vague, momentary thought that LEOs are necessary to keep you safe, call for them. Discuss it with your partner, their perception and input should help.

 

[Rialaigh]

So if someone is not in their right frame of mind they are just free to do harm to us? Lethal force is not about frame of mind, it is about saving your own life. It is reserved for when all other methods have failed and it's you or him.

No they are not free to harm us. The point that I have been posting is that despite the fact that we get assaulted and every once in a while an EMS worker dies at the hands of a patient, There is 0 solid evidence presented in this thread that guns will actually reduce assaults or deaths of EMS workers. There is also the fact that when you introduce a gun into a scene that previously had no firearm you are increasing the risk on the scene. There is more chance of someone being injured or killed by a gun at a scene that has a gun then at a scene that does not have a gun...its just a fact.


And in the study I posted 10 EMS workers were killed by homicide over 5 years, that is about the same as the nation average for civilian homicides. There is no evidence that any of those 10 homicides would or could have been preventable by someone carrying concealed...

 

[truetiger]

It's sad you want a body count to prove its need. 10 is 10 too many. Not saying it would of prevented any of those, but at least they would of had the option. All we're asking is the chance to at least go down with a fight.

 

[Clipper1]

All we're asking is the chance to at least go down with a fight.

This statement clearly demonstrates more education is needed for scene safety. If you are looking for a fight, you will find one and you will lose. You knowingly take a life when there were other options, you will lose. Having a gun sometimes makes people think that is the only option thus making them forget all other safety alternatives. Once you pull your gun one or both of you will lose. This is not a scene from Third Watch where you can write the hero script. Pulling a gun is real with real consequences even if everyone does live. The burden of proof that it was a justified shoot is totally on you just as any other uniformed officer has learned.

 

[hogdweeb]

Anyone ever think,, I have a gun, you have a gun, and they have a gun..who has the biggest? We wont know until the gun smoke clears, will we?

On another note, look at sandy Hook. We all know it was one individual. If one or two civilians or teachers had some form of self defense other then 911, it could have been ended before it started, or the causalities could have been significantly less.

remember a few months back in upstate New York, the building was set on fire and the arsonist opened up on fire fighters as they were arriving? Yes, LEOs were on scene, but if they hadnt yet been and one of the firefighters, or a by stander had a shot and took advantage of it?

I am saying we should all be able to carry because we want to, but if we operate in a high violence area where LEOs arent always readily available for whatever reason, we should have the right for higher means of self defense other then waiting and staging. Right?

 

[Rialaigh]

It's sad you want a body count to prove its need. 10 is 10 too many. Not saying it would of prevented any of those, but at least they would of had the option. All we're asking is the chance to at least go down with a fight.

If you think that creating policies that would lead to 0 deaths would be in any way efficient then I would urge you to go back and take an economics class or two on how to best make decisions.


I am going to make a huge leap, and some of you may not agree, but just consider this.

I think that if we put a gun in the hands of every EMS worker full time at work and at home then I would make this assumption

The number of suicides of EMS workers by gun would be HIGHER then the reduction in homicides. In other words we would actually kill more EMS workers then we would save, even not accounting for all the other risks.

Not for sure on this at all but just consider this as a possibility, look at high stress workers that have access to firearms all the time and the suicide rate that results (the military).

Just a thought

 

[truetiger]

Not sure how you came up with that....I'm not saying that a ccw policy will result in zero homicides. The idea behind ccw is giving us a fair chance. Your second assumption is pure bullsh*t. A ccw policy would allow, not require us to be able to carry. Most of us ( at least in my neck of the woods) already own firearms. How is being able to carry my Glock 27 going to cause me to be suicidal and put one in my head?