College and Paramedic School?

[TransportJockey]

AH K. Thanks guys Reason I asked is medical school is still a dream of mine, even if I don't know how the hell I'll get there/pay for it.

 

[usafmedic45]

Nothing really other than DO's are more whole patient oriented.

That's a load of crap. It's just one excuse (along with history) that the DO programs use to keep themselves from being rolled into a single degree with the allopathic guys. It's kind of like saying that modern paramedics trace their heritage back to Johnny and Roy where as the basics are the "descendents" of the funeral home ambulance services of the pre-1960s. I say this as someone who formally worked at an "osteopathic" hospital. The attendings used to laugh at the premeds who would come into shadow and spout off that crap. According to them, the only differences are the licensing exams, the presence of a few more residency programs that they can apply to, some historical BS that no one cares about and the additional training in musculoskeletal care.

graduate from college then take a year off to go to medic school while you're applying to med school.

Why would you take a glide year simply to get you medic license when you're not going to have time to use it? There are so many better options to use time off for.

 

[rescue99]

That's a load of crap. It's just one excuse (along with history) that the DO programs use to keep themselves from being rolled into a single degree with the allopathic guys. It's kind of like saying that modern paramedics trace their heritage back to Johnny and Roy where as the basics are the "descendents" of the funeral home ambulance services of the pre-1960s. I say this as someone who formally worked at an "osteopathic" hospital. The attendings used to laugh at the premeds who would come into shadow and spout off that crap. According to them, the only differences are the licensing exams, the presence of a few more residency programs that they can apply to, some historical BS that no one cares about and the additional training in musculoskeletal care.

I'm not an M.D. or a D.O. I expect they will each defend their choices.

 

[usafmedic45]

I'm not an M.D. or a D.O. I expect they will each defend their choices.

Well, I've never met a DO (and I know a lot, including several who sit on the admissions committees or administrations of osteopathic medical schools) that actually believes that modern DOs and modern MDs have any difference in the "whole person" approach. As one of them put it, it might have mattered 30 or 40 years ago, but unless you ask or see their diploma chances are you'll never know who is treating you just based on how they treat you.

BTW, my primary care doc is a DO and I never knew that until I heard him make a comment about having attended Kirksville (the flagship school of osteopathic medicine) one day.

 

[rwik123]

Well, I've never met a DO (and I know a lot, including several who sit on the admissions committees or administrations of osteopathic medical schools) that actually believes that modern DOs and modern MDs have any difference in the "whole person" approach. As one of them put it, it might have mattered 30 or 40 years ago, but unless you ask or see their diploma chances are you'll never know who is treating you just based on how they treat you.

BTW, my primary care doc is a DO and I never knew that until I heard him make a comment about having attended Kirksville (the flagship school of osteopathic medicine) one day.

Are DOs able to practice in the same specialties as MDs?

 

[yankeefan213]

+1 on this.

The answer, I suspect, is that you love getting hands on and you wanna do something that will allow you to be hands on earlier than medical school.

Pretty much everything is better than high school. Even the good parts of high school suck compared to university. Then, assuming you actually like your career path, working s**ts all over university. I'm deducing from your love of the EMT-B thing that you get a lot of satisfaction doing something real and something that has actual meaning as opposed to the arse load of abstract learning you do in highschool and, to an extent, at university. Although that might just be me projecting (I even enjoyed stacking shelves at Safeway because it had an actual effect, however small). If I'm right about that, then you are potentially sacrificing long term satisfaction (medical school, MD) for short term potential 'gains' as a paramedic. You will regret that. Try and have the maturity to work towards the higher goal and take solice in the fact that you will not have to wait until you are a doctor for more of that real world fun/learning that has actual meaning. Firstly you can continue to get it from your volly EMT studd and secondly its pretty much only gets better after high school.

Usafmedic is right about the patch factories. I just finished a paramedic bachelors degree and it doesn't feel like I have enough knowledge. That's because we have a system that teaches you enough to show you how much you don't know. For the most part, America doesn't, and that is dangerous.

So work hard at school, and keep the balance in your life that you seem to have already. Without that balance you'll burn out, regardless of whether or not you chose to be a doctor or a paramedic. If you try to chose both, you might end up with neither.

A lot of truth in that. I actually don't mind to much the abstract learning; I find some of the material quite interesting. I agree with a lot of the things you say. Sometimes you can't have it all and I think that I will be much happier as a doc (I'm thinking trauma surgery and doing some time in the military at this point, obviously subject to change). I have thought about other careers (law, business, law enforcement among others), but I just don't see myself doing that for 40 years. I think milmed appeals to me in somewhat the same way paramedicine does--I'm a hands on, get dirty and do something kind of person, and I don't want to be stuck behind a desk or in a lab for my entire career. I know its really cliché, but I do enjoy the idea of seeing myself make an immediate impact on the world, even if its only a few people, and doing it in the military appeals to my other favorite cliché, duty to my country. (Don't take this to mean I'm being phony, this is just how I feel about myself now).

Like you suggest, I am working as hard as my schoolwork allows on being the best EMT-B I can be (I pull as many extra hours as I can).

 

[Markhk]

There are so many better options to use time off for.

That is certainly true, but a decent number of premeds these days take a few years off before applying. You could go to medic school and work a bit, then apply. Motivations to go to paramedic school vary considerably, but it sounds like the thread-starter does have a genuine interest in EMS, so it would be cool if he could nurture that at some point. (As people have pointed out time and again...EMS care and medicine are quite different.) I feel lucky to have had a chance to do the pre-hospital thing at a younger age before applying to med school...it sure beat a heck of a lot of other "premedical experiences" that were available to undergraduates at my institution.

Are DOs able to practice in the same specialties as MDs?

Specialties are determined by your ability to get into a Residency program (e.g. Internal Medicine, Emergency Medicine, Anesthesiology etc.) To get into these programs, you need to take graduate level exams; for MD residency program they look at the USMLE, for DO residency programs they look at the COMLEX. However, to keep their options open, a lot of DO physicians will take BOTH the USMLE exam and the COMLEX, so they can apply for both types of residency programs. As such, there is no reason why a DO physician can't do the same specialty as a MD.

 

[usafmedic45]

That is certainly true, but a decent number of premeds these days take a few years off before applying.

Mostly because a lot of them have no choice (finances, etc) or because they have to do post-bacc or graduate programs to have a chance of getting in.

I'm thinking trauma surgery and doing some time in the military at this point, obviously subject to change

Ah, to be young, naive and idealistic again....no offense intended.

and I don't want to be stuck behind a desk or in a lab for my entire career.

If you don't want to get stuck behind a desk, don't spend time in the military. If you get above the rank of lieutenant colonel, you'll be spending a lot of time on administrative crap.

I think milmed appeals to me in somewhat the same way paramedicine does--I'm a hands on, get dirty and do something kind of person,

You do realize that most physicians and medical personnel in the military don't have jack crap to do with the parts of the system that seem to be appealing to you. Don't go walking in assuming that you'll be assigned a surgical slot simply because you are a surgeon. You can get stuck doing primary care roles even if you're a general surgeon (which is what a trauma surgeon actually is in most cases) simply because the military always has a shortage of docs (mostly because they don't treat them all that great) and next thing you know instead of being wrist deep in someone chest in a war zone getting your hands "dirty" you're finding yourself sitting on a base in Thule, Greenland managing the cholesterol meds of overweight senior NCOs.

Also, as a combat veteran, I would like to point out that the reality of caring for wounded- especially in the military- is not fun, at least not for very long. It's soul crushing, draining, exhausting and absolutely heartbreaking at times. You're a first person witness to some of the greatest waste of human life on this planet. Even as bitter and misanthropic as I am, it grinds you down and you never look at the world the same way again. So before you go thinking it's an exciting career where you get to "do something", remember that it's someone's son or daughter's suffering and sacrifice that is giving you the chance to do that.

Actually, chance is the wrong word....the obligation to do that. After a very short while, unless someone is exceedingly immature or a flat out sociopath, they find themselves wishing dearly and perhaps praying to their chosen deity that they don't have to do anything tonight. Part of this is selfish- "Just let me sleep", "I can't take this anymore", etc- and part of it is altruistic in that no medical provider who is working off of truly decent motivations ever wants a critical case to fall into their lap.

The famed German politician Otto von Bismarck is reported to have said "Any man who has looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier as he lays dying on a battlefield will stop and think long and hard before going to war". He was speaking about the politicians and generals. No good commander, military or otherwise, is selfish with or acts without concerns for the lives of his men. This is why Richard Winters (the commander of the famed E/506th PIR, 101st Airborne) who died a few days ago was so widely respected by his men. He cared for them and looked out for them. President Bismarck might not have been talking about military medicine, but he very well could have been. As someone who is haunted by the glazed eyes of a different generation, I think anyone who goes into that field needs to remember why they are there and the price they will pay for the privilege to be allowed to serve as a part of the teams who stand as the last line of defense against death for our soldiers, the enemy's soldiers and those simply with the misfortune of living in a war zone. The price you pay is always your innocence, often some sliver of varying size of your sanity and, if you're unfortunate, your life.

I realize you're just a kid, but I was too when I got into EMS and when I went into the military. I wish someone had been upfront with me about these things when I was your age. If they had, I probably would sleep better at night.

 

[Markhk]

For the premed, I think it's sometimes hard to read advice that is "the cold hard truth" but USAFmedic45 really speaks on the truth on the topic.

What "military medicine" is can be tough to understand for the person looking in. Most of us just get ideas from watching Wade in Saving Private Ryan. (I would suggest anyone interested in milmed to watch "Fighting for Life", a documentary on USUHS and military med http://www.fightingforlifethemovie.com/) The military loves to throw terms around like "Flight Surgeon" (which, in reality the position does not involve surgery at all) that sounds exciting but is really quite routine. Military medicine training does involve a lot of "contingency medicine" training and care for the austere environment, but it is also a lot of "hurry up and wait".

By the way, usafmedic45, thanks for your service. It is appreciated.

 

[usafmedic45]

By the way, usafmedic45, thanks for your service. It is appreciated.

Not a problem. Be sure to say the same thing to any service member you see.

 

[yankeefan213]

By the way, usafmedic45, thanks for your service. It is appreciated.

Agreed. I want to thank all military servicemen, past and present, who put themselves on the line so that others don't have to.

I realize you're just a kid.

I absolutely positively detest any arguement beginning with that phrase. While I am sure well intentioned, (and I have been listening to what you have to say usafmedic45, believe it or not I truly do listen), I find that using that phrase starts a debate by subjugating the "kid." I find it condecending and hubristic to think that in some circumstance, somewhere that some "kid" hasn't done something better than an adult. While I fully (all too fully) understand that I lack experience and knowledge to to my age, please do not patronize me.

Yes, I understand your point about the service; I have done some other research. Thank you for your insight, it is enlightening, and I will consider it as I would any other advice I recieve here or anywhere else. And what you say about "wishing someone had been upfront with me about these things whe I was your age," is a large part about why I started this thread in the first place. I am trying to see through others' eyes as best I can.

 

[usafmedic45]

believe it or not I truly do listen

That's good to know.

I absolutely positively detest any arguement beginning with that phrase. While I am sure well intentioned, (and I have been listening to what you have to say usafmedic45, believe it or not I truly do listen), I find that using that phrase starts a debate by subjugating the "kid." I find it condecending and hubristic to think that in some circumstance, somewhere that some "kid" hasn't done something better than an adult. While I fully (all too fully) understand that I lack experience and knowledge to to my age, please do not patronize me.

It's not being patronizing. It's a statement of fact. I'm in my thirties and I still get called "a kid" by folks with more experience than me.

So far as comparing your age to your experience and knowledge level, I will state you seem to be quite exceptional which is why I am trying to look out for you. If I didn't think you were worth the trouble (like most teenage EMS personnel) you would be truly getting browbeat. Ask anyone on here: I have zero tolerance for BS and if I think you're able to learn, willing to learn and have something to offer your patients and your collegues, I will do anything to help you. If I thought you're not worth my time, I'd have already torn your heart out and taken a bite from it. LOL

All I want is you to not make the same mistakes that I did because reading your posts is like getting inside my own head at 16. Anything you need, all you have to do is ask.

 

[yankeefan213]

That's good to know.



It's not being patronizing. It's a statement of fact. I'm in my thirties and I still get called "a kid" by folks with more experience than me.

So far as comparing your age to your experience and knowledge level, I will state you seem to be quite exceptional which is why I am trying to look out for you. If I didn't think you were worth the trouble (like most teenage EMS personnel) you would be truly getting browbeat. Ask anyone on here: I have zero tolerance for BS and if I think you're able to learn, willing to learn and have something to offer your patients and your collegues, I will do anything to help you. If I thought you're not worth my time, I'd have already torn your heart out and taken a bite from it. LOL

All I want is you to not make the same mistakes that I did because reading your posts is like getting inside my own head at 16. Anything you need, all you have to do is ask.

Thank you. I play baseball, and you always know who the best kids are because they are the ones the coach always yells at when they make a mistake, not because they do it more often, but because those are the kids who will internalize the coaching and change their error, and not become downtrodden and melancholy because they got chewed out.

I am new to the site and EMS, but you will find that I do not BS. When I say something I am sincere in what I say (excet for the obvious sarcasm lol). I figured when I posted that I had a 50/50 shot of recieving the response you just gave me or a complete *** chewing. Thank you for choosing the former.

 

[usafmedic45]

I figured when I posted that I had a 50/50 shot of recieving the response you just gave me or a complete *** chewing.

Yeah...that's pretty close to correct.