Are most EMS personnel THIS unprofessional?

[zaboomafoozarg]

In the state I trained in, we were expected to come up with a field diagnosis and document it. How the heck can you treat something if you don't know what you are treating?

That's exciting news. Because, as a basic student, we can't say anything other than signs and symptoms. Heck, you can't even say someone broke their fibula because that's a diagnosis. It's lame. (aha, pun.)

FYI, as a student, you do indeed have the right not to be hazed or harassed. I never argued that.

I know you didn't. But you know as well as I do how a person's inexperience and general newness can be turned against them just by nature of the opportunity presenting itself to others. It happens in kindergarten. It happens in middle school. It happens in high-school. College? Very much so, depending. And sad to say, it happens on the job in the midst of presumably well trained grown men who obviously have a bit of inner child to still let out.


You know what I'm talking about. Heck, for example, there's a thread of over 200 replies about EMS pranks right over on the Lounge forum, many of which would only be funny in the eye of the prankster, and a right pain (or even possibly considered harassment hazing) to anyone else.

This, I believe, all stems from the "Rookie/Veteran" mindset. And you hear all the time, "give the rookie the crap job," etc, etc. Unprofessional. That's really all I can say. I'm not qualified to say any more than that!

 

[daedalus]

In the state I trained in, we were expected to come up with a field diagnosis and document it. How the heck can you treat something if you don't know what you are treating?

Yikes. That is exactly what I said. It was the OP who said that paramedics do not diagnose, I was just trying to inform him that field Dx is in the paramedic SOP.

 

[daedalus]

I know you didn't. But you know as well as I do how a person's inexperience and general newness can be turned against them just by nature of the opportunity presenting itself to others. It happens in kindergarten. It happens in middle school. It happens in high-school. College? Very much so, depending. And sad to say, it happens on the job in the midst of presumably well trained grown men who obviously have a bit of inner child to still let out.


You know what I'm talking about. Heck, for example, there's a thread of over 200 replies about EMS pranks right over on the Lounge forum, many of which would only be funny in the eye of the prankster, and a right pain to anyone else.

This, I believe, all stems from the "Rookie/Veteran" mindset. And you hear all the time, "give the rookie the crap job," etc, etc. Unprofessional. That's really all you can say.

We look down on hazing newbies here. I would not tolerate it at my work. We do pull some pretty funny pranks on co-workers from time to time but they are all done out of love. Sometimes, if you do not get made fun of, it means you are not liked.

Take an Anatomy and Physiology class and get yourself to paramedic school as soon as you can, you will not be content as a basic. I can tell. There you will get to do so much guessing bout diagnosis you will hate it when an instructor asks you for a list of possible issues going on with your scenario patient.

 

[Luno]

I'm not sure that the education level (I assume you're referring to EMT and not Paramedic too, by the way) has that much to do with it, because... much of what I heard and saw would not be even close to tolerated in a minimum wage entry level position! Let alone a job of this importance. Furthermore, who would you rather have be a compassionate, helpful and, if at all possible, remotely pleasant person of character: your barber or the person responsible for saving your life? But, apparently being an untrained outsider, I do not have the keen eye or educational requirements for spotting blatant indecency.

Unfortunately you've been sold a bill of goods. The EMT class does not make you an EMT, it gives you the tools to pass an exam, that's it... An EMT is made in the field through practical experience. The class you are taking just qualifies you to apply for a minimum wage entry level position. There isn't even a guarantee that you will be able to achieve that minimum wage entry level position.

However I will challenge you that the hubris you present with, i.e. being able to spot blatant indecency... is sorely incorrect. You are attempting to enter a seperate society, one with it's own rules, language, and customs. It's like a civilian trying to tell me that military basic training is barbaric and pointless. I assert that you have no applicable point of reference. Your posture is confrontational to a society that you are paying for the opportunity to attempt to join. I also enjoy heated discussion, so I look forward to your counterpoint.

However, I will conceed that you do have some points. However, I cannot comment to whether they are as you assert, or they seem to be from an outside point of reference. I do believe that the hazing, bullying, and "kissing the ***" of the senior emt/medic is bs though. If it is truely what you assert, it has no place in a learning environment, and yes, even the station is a learning environment

 

[zaboomafoozarg]

We look down on hazing newbies here. I would not tolerate it at my work. We do pull some pretty funny pranks on co-workers from time to time but they are all done out of love. Sometimes, if you do not get made fun of, it means you are not liked.

Take an Anatomy and Physiology class and get yourself to paramedic school as soon as you can, you will not be content as a basic. I can tell. There you will get to do so much guessing bout diagnosis you will hate it when an instructor asks you for a list of possible issues going on with your scenario patient.

That's obviously true. But compared to almost any other profession, it sounds sometimes like firehouses and stations are naught but big playgrounds where the people go out and save lives from time to time. And I'm not saying that's wrong, so long as people's general attitudes and behavior are positive and appropriate.

Yea, I completed all the prereqs for my Paramedic class before I ever started basic. I wanted a smooth transition, and the A&P and Medical Terminology and whatnot has helped with Basic too, obviously.

But now I can't decide whether to go right into the Para program or take a 9 mo. break and look for a job as an EMT. I've heard lots from both sides.

 

[Onceamedic]

Yikes. That is exactly what I said. It was the OP who said that paramedics do not diagnose, I was just trying to inform him that field Dx is in the paramedic SOP.

Easy big fella... I wasn't arguing with you. I was just providing another example.

 

[zaboomafoozarg]

The EMT class does not make you an EMT, it gives you the tools to pass an exam,

Nor did I say it did. It also makes me eligible to take the exam. Can't take the exam without the class, can't pass the class without the ridealongs. That's what I was saying.

You are attempting to enter a seperate society, one with it's own rules, language, and customs

First off, it should not even be a separate society. It is a business, or a local government service, designed to provide emergency healthcare to the needy. Sounds professional, right? That's the purpose, right?

Second off, the fact that it does get sequestered from society still does not include any good reason for the general behavior and language to deteriorate into baseness.

It's like a civilian trying to tell me that military basic training is barbaric and pointless.

Not quite. Military basic training involves training. It is barbaric to toughen people up physically to the barbarism of war.

That's a far cry from EMS's job description. On the job, as a EMT/Para, you should ideally be trained and already be a professional person. You should be hired into a station not acting as a child, but a functioning adult.


Herein lies the difference between us: You view EMS as a society and a way of life, apparently an exclusive one too since outsiders are regarded with suspicion and confronted with counteractive unprofessional measures. I view it as a profession. A noble job.

 

[JPINFV]

First off, it should not even be a separate society. It is a business, or a local government service, designed to provide emergency healthcare to the needy. Sounds professional, right? That's the purpose, right?

I'm going to agree with the premise that medical care is a business and service, but not a separate society. I'm going to disagree with your application though. All places of work have a work place culture, which generally includes inside jokes about their work. No one would second guess a computer programmer making a joke about computers. No one would second guess a researcher joking about his research. The problem is that the jokes that can be made about medicine are more geared towards 12 year old boys. Why? Because our job is about poop, penises, rectums, mastication, nasty wounds, and people (tooth to tattoo ratio anyone?). The difference is that we call it "gallows humor" and boys call it "bathroom humor." Now, just as the computer programmer shouldn't be making jokes about his line of work to customers, we need to understand that there's a time and a place for such humor.

 

[Luno]

Nor did I say it did. It also makes me eligible to take the exam. Can't take the exam without the class, can't pass the class without the ridealongs. That's what I was saying.



First off, it should not even be a separate society. It is a business, or a local government service, designed to provide emergency healthcare to the needy. Sounds professional, right? That's the purpose, right?

Second off, the fact that it does get sequestered from society still does not include any good reason for the general behavior and language to deteriorate into baseness.

I disagree with your opinion that it should not be a seperate society. And request that you back your opinion. Here's mine, societies have been formed for the protection and common good of the society's members. They provide a common language, customs, and traditions. Groups of people who are routinely subjected high stress through work, have formed a common language, customs, and traditions. Examples... Police, Firefighters, Military... I feel that you do not recognize the needs of a society, and that you are attempting to judge something that you do not understand.

Not quite. Military basic training involves training. It is barbaric to toughen people up physically to the barbarism of war. That's a far cry from EMS's job description. Plus, On the job, as a EMT/Para, you should ideally be trained and already be a professional, ready human being. You should be hired into a station not acting as a child, but a functioning adult.

I will again request that you reinforce your arguement. It is a comparable stressor to look into the eyes of someone your own age as they die, to witness the family who is losing their only child, with no training... That leads to PTSD and burnout. Now, the rookie period should be similar to basic training, you are learning what is going on. Should there be pushups, etc... IMHO, no, it doesn't serve the purpose. Should the EMT who shows up at my station expect to be a full fledged member of the team? Absolutely not. There's a proving time, and it isn't through hazing, it's through coaching and active feedback. But they are not professionals yet, and are not teammates yet. Your (not specifically you, but the rookie) prior life experience is helpful, but not a substitute.

Herein lies the difference between us: You view EMS as a society and a way of life, apparently an exclusive one too since outsiders are regarded with suspicion and confronted with counteractive unprofessional measures. I view it as a profession. A noble job.

Once again, I'm going to request that you establish this, rather than postulate. Outsiders are only looked upon with suspicion, when they pass judgement without understanding what they are seeing. This is by no means a statement that EMS is perfect, we have significant issues within the field. Prime examples are education, pay, benefits, hours, turnover, and the lack of EMS as a profession in most markets. It is simply a job. EMS is a unique society, and I would be interested in your viewpoints after 2 years in the field. And as someone with 6 years in various aspects of pre-hospital medicine, both as a provider and EMS management, I feel that I can speak from experience...

 

[Seaglass]

First off, it should not even be a separate society. It is a business, or a local government service, designed to provide emergency healthcare to the needy. Sounds professional, right? That's the purpose, right?

The world EMS lives in is not normal society. It's some weird parallel universe that doesn't play by the rules. In normal society, you don't get covered in vomit and blood on a regular basis. You don't expect to be called to deliver a baby, only to watch it die. You don't expect deal with some poor mangled redneck who got caught in the farm equipment, or a drug addict who finally had a little too much. You don't see the disgusting and painful indignities of old age. Those are instead neatly sequestered in hospitals and nursing homes. In normal society, you can hand those over to other people when some freak accident shoves them in your face. In EMS, you are those other people.

None of that's any excuse for being rude to patients, or generally unprofessional. You try to avoid all that. But psychological and behavioral standards do change according to environment, and all sorts of interesting coping mechanisms emerge. Like anyone, you adapt. You learn to laugh it off where you can, because you probably aren't going to stay engaged and emotionally stable otherwise. You get a little bit more callous. You learn to function even when you're so tired you can't remember what you did a few hours ago.

At my VFD, we call our day jobs and families "real life," even though we're all pretty dedicated to EMS/fire. At first I thought that was kinda juvenile and bizarre. But I'm starting to get it. In the real world, I'm some mild-mannered office flunky. My partners are real estate agents, lawyers, secretaries, grocery store clerks, and stay-at-home moms. Would you ever catch us yelling at clients? Course not. But there I am at midnight, yelling at some drunk who keeps putting her head down to go back to sleep. And when I go to the office in the morning, the fog of sleep deprivation and the sheer bizarreness of some calls often combine to make the night before all seem like a dream.

(ETA: We don't say the "real life" thing anywhere else I work. But it's still pretty darn weird to have a night of blood and other people's pain everywhere, and then come home to a peaceful house. The more I do it, the more normal it seems... but I guess you get used to everything.)

(Second edit: And no, most shifts really aren't that exciting.)

 

[Luno]

In reading my message again, I do want to clarify that my comment about 6 years in the field is not to diminish your opinion, but rather to shed light on my opinion. This is by no means an attempt to trump by experience.

 

[Achromatic]

No, not every patient needs oxygen. No, not every patient who might benefit from supplemental oxygen needs a NRB. No, not every NRB needs 15 LPM to run.

As a random aside, this. Every student in my class when asked what they'd initially flow an NC at, says 4 (our protocols state 2-4LPM, though I know 6LPM is a commonly accepted figure), an NRM, 15. And don't understand why I say 2, and 8, if not 'per what appears to be the pt's need'. Just "turn it to '11'..."

 

[zaboomafoozarg]

Interesting point JPINFV. And the humor can be clean, despite referencing body parts and such. Poop jokes are among the funniest things know to man.

I feel that you do not recognize the needs of a society, and that you are attempting to judge something that you do not understand.

How do these groups deal? Negatively, I'm sure. In the original example, I found the "common language, customs, and traditions" of which you to include: chronic cursing, sporadic anger outbursts, humor via insults and borderline perversion, lack of ethics and morals, (which I'm sure some will argue is completely subjective but I don't believe that is true.) Positive responses? Nil.

Everyone needs to unwind. Especially people with high-stress jobs. Subconsciously, however, unwinding in such wrong ways makes things worse. Tons of research shows this with stress management.

If there does in fact need to be a little separate society for people in EMS, despite the fact that for some reason anyone in business or any other occupation can somehow manage to live normal lives without doing so (why is that?) then as professionals they ought not to "protect" their "common good" in a way that lowers them to such a base, crude, uncouth level.

Should the EMT who shows up at my station expect to be a full fledged member of the team? Absolutely not. There's a proving time, and it isn't through hazing, it's through coaching and active feedback. But they are not professionals yet, and are not teammates yet. Your (not specifically you, but the rookie) prior life experience is helpful, but not a substitute.

Since we are comparing, then Military Basic Training should = EMT School. When someone completes military basic training, do they have to undergo subconscious initiation tests in order to be "accepted" into the military? Heck no. They got "hired," they are now on the team. Right? I can't speak first hand, but I've heard nothing contrary.

Same with EMT's. If you don't treat new employees as full teammates (despite that you will expect them to treat you as one) then that is pure bogus. Coaching is fine. But a "rookie" period in which you treat said person as an inferior human being and still a partial outsider is completely inappropriate. Should never have hired them in the first place if you feel that pulling something like that is needed.

Outsiders are only looked upon with suspicion, when they pass judgement without understanding what they are seeing.

That's because they are ignored otherwise. It's a "separate society," remember?


You say "It is simply a job." and then "EMS is a unique society." Those statements two are contrary. Simply a job means a daily activity for which one receives wages. A society implies a whole new facet of living style. Which I still don't believe EMS should ever be. These internally conflicting statements need to be resolved if you can change your wording or however you want to try to do it.









Oh, Seaglass, I liked your post. Pretty enlightening

 

[guardian528]

Word of the Day:

Schadenfreude [shahd-n-froi-duh] : Malicious enjoyment derived from observing someone else's misfortune

 

[JPINFV]

Word of the Day:

Schadenfreude [shahd-n-froi-duh] : Malicious enjoyment derived from observing someone else's misfortune

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XmZIcmRKkc[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Luno]

Interesting point JPINFV. And the humor can be clean, despite referencing body parts and such. Poop jokes are among the funniest things know to man.
How do these groups deal? Negatively, I'm sure. In the original example, I found the "common language, customs, and traditions" of which you to include: chronic cursing, sporadic anger outbursts, humor via insults and borderline perversion, lack of ethics and morals, (which I'm sure some will argue is completely subjective but I don't believe that is true.) Positive responses? Nil.

Again, cursing, humor, your perception of perversion, are all subjective. I'll state again, you lack the time in field, station, ambulance, etc... to judge. The lack of morals is again, highly suspect, as the perception is again highly subjective. The lack of ethics as it relates to patient care is not. This is a black and white issue.

Everyone needs to unwind. Especially people with high-stress jobs. Subconsciously, however, unwinding in such wrong ways makes things worse. Tons of research shows this with stress management.

If there does in fact need to be a little separate society for people in EMS, despite the fact that for some reason anyone in business or any other occupation can somehow manage to live normal lives without doing so (why is that?) then as professionals they ought not to "protect" their "common good" in a way that lowers them to such a base, crude, uncouth level.

I guess I should define "society"; structured community of people: a structured community of people bound together by similar traditions, institutions, or nationality. Your example lacks substantive proof, as societies are organized along occupational lines, for example trade unions, particular interests as in motorcycle or car clubs, and even national origin. The society that is EMS should not protect against forward progress, but your opinion that it lowers it to a base, crude, uncouth level, is again highly subjective based entirely upon your own personal views. Again, views that do not have time in the field to back.

Since we are comparing, then Military Basic Training should = EMT School. When someone completes military basic training, do they have to undergo subconscious initiation tests in order to be "accepted" into the military? Heck no. They got "hired," they are now on the team. Right? I can't speak first hand, but I've heard nothing contrary.

Evidently you've never been in the military, I can speak first hand. Fresh out of basic you are not considered to be equal to an experienced member of the team. You are a rookie, and are treated as such. It was so bad, there had to be anti-hazing rules implemented.

Same with EMT's. If you don't treat new employees as full teammates (despite that you will expect them to treat you as one) then that is pure bogus. Coaching is fine. But a "rookie" period in which you treat said person as an inferior human being and still a partial outsider is completely inappropriate. Should never have hired them in the first place if you feel that pulling something like that is needed.

They haven't earned the respect and proven themselves to be worth full team status. I've never condoned treating them as an inferior human being, but they are not equal members of the team yet either. While I dislike quite a few things about the fire service, I do believe their year of probation is a good thing.

That's because they are ignored otherwise. It's a "separate society," remember?

You say "It is simply a job." and then "EMS is a unique society." Those statements two are contrary. Simply a job means a daily activity for which one receives wages. A society implies a whole new facet of living style. Which I still don't believe EMS should ever be. These internally conflicting statements need to be resolved if you can change your wording or however you want to try to do it.

The service we exchange for daily wages provides the job, the interaction between EMS providers is the society.








Oh, Seaglass, I liked your post. Pretty enlightening[/QUOTE]

 

[DrParasite]

(But it's not actually their house. They're just acting like kids in the owner's house, who I'm sure would probably have higher professional standards in mind than displayed.)

what do you know about EMS? or the fire service? or law enforcement? you seem to have your mind made up, when you really know nothing about this industry.

Let me educate you. I used to work for a hospital based EMS service. I was one of 8 full time employees assigned to Ambulance 780. It WAS our truck. we worked on it, we customized it to make out jobs easier. we took care of that truck. we knew the area better than anyone else, because it was OUR truck, and our responsibility to do so.

Did we own it? no. did we pay for the equipment on it? no. but it was still OUR truck. and for those 12 hours, it was OUR truck.

if you did a ride along, you were a guest on OUR truck. if a per diem was working a shift on A780, they were a guest on OUR truck. They didn't work it day in and day out, didn't know the ins and outs of the city, didn't know how WE operated. Most understood that. Some had to have it explained to them. So if a newbie comes on, he understood that he should see how the truck operates before trying to tell people how wrong they are. usually takes at least a year, sometimes more.

Ditto for a fire house. you think they don't treat a fire house as THEIR house? or you come onto an engine crew, as an outsider, and are going to tell them how wrong they are, and tell them how to do things? or even better, tell a cop that his patrol car is a disaster, and you know better. I bet you are thrown out on your *** and told not to come back.

about a year ago I accepted a new position at another Hospital based EMS system. I have 10 years in EMS, the last 4 in a 100% career urban based system. when I came here, I sat in the back, and listened to what I was told. I did 5 shifts with the veterans (3 as a 3rd on a BLS truck, and a 4th as a 3rd as an ALS truck). The entire time, it was "how do you do things" and "what can I do to help you" and "how do you guys do this?" I kept my mouth shut, helped out when I could and pretty much just observed. The 5th shift I was working as a second, and i was the same way, even though I had been doing this for 10 years, I still let my partner take the lead on every patient. Did I agree with everything I saw? no. was it different than I was used to? absolutely. But I understood that I was the new guy, and a guest in their house. it was their rules, and it was my responsibility to learn them. if you want to have a career in EMS, you would do well to learn that.

Don't they know that it reflects badly ONLY upon them when they act like that?

I don't know, you would have to ask them

Since when did personal opinion about the idiocy level of a patient or her caregiver have anything to do with actual patient care and warrant complaining loudly and unprofessionally to everyone about it?

hmmmm. nurse asks why do you have no information, and you can say that is why. or asks why is the patient in that condition, that is why. or maybe if it's a potential case of elder neglect, so the hospital staff can be aware of a potential problem. or maybe they were just venting their frustrations that the patient wasn't being properly cared for, and since the system seems to fail all too often, it was the only way they could say what was on their mind without actually going off on the caregiver. I don't know, I wasn't there. But until you have worked in their shoes, day in and day out, who are you to judge?

Let me ask you, is your truck actually *your truck* or are you representing a company, district, and EMS system as a whole? Because if you're a jerk, audibly, in front of people, it reflects negatively on lots and lots of people. "Wow, those paramedics are really nasty."

See above on the whole "your truck" thing.

I will also let you in on a dirty secret about EMS. There are a lot of people who are not happy with the system. But unlike some careers where people don't like their jobs, they actually do, but they get frustrated with trying to advance their profession and constantly facing roadblock after roadblock. Not enough units, not enough ALS, ALS can't do enough, dispatch's equipment doesn't work, equipment on the ambulances don't work, ambulances keep breaking down, stuck in an ambulance for 12 hours without a station, running job to job to job without a break for 12 straight hours, and lack of proper training for new hires(both internal and external) are all common complaints, and many people have tried to make improvement, either to their own system or the system statewide without success. They wish things could be better (for the betterment of their industry and the public in general), but for various reasons (usually related to funding and the lack of being tax funded) it never seems to happen.

so after you have been "fighting the good fight" for 5 or 10 years, come back and tell us exactly how you feel.

 

[EDAC]

Since we are comparing, then Military Basic Training should = EMT School. When someone completes military basic training, do they have to undergo subconscious initiation tests in order to be "accepted" into the military? Heck no. They got "hired," they are now on the team. Right? I can't speak first hand, but I've heard nothing contrary.

Having been in the military and having gone through basic training, your assessment of whether or not an "initiation" is undergone is just flat out wrong. You go through an initiation unlike anything you ever experienced. It begins in basic training, then into AIT, then into your first duty station, your second duty station..........and so on.

If I told you some of the things that recruits and newfs (in Germany) go through, some would not believe it. Contrary to your beliefs, all new soldiers when I was serving were put through some sort of physically punishing, or humiliting rite of passage. Lets just say alcohol played a big part in it and it was not uncommon to see blood, hospitalization, or the brig. Most times the top brass just turned away and pretended not to see, but it did happen, and on a daily basis. Ever heard of a blanket party? The Gauntlet?

The more elite your MOS was the more punishing the rite of passage was, you are not just accepted just because you sign on the dotted line, you have to prove you are worthy to serve beside the seasoned veterans, in many cases who were combat veterans.

As an MP in the Army I got to see both sides of it, first, being the one who is hazed, harrassed, or whatever you want to call it as a new MP, and second seeing the outcome of a rite of passage that has gone too far. I still have the scars on the skin on my collarbones from the pinning parties, where they drive the pins into your shoulders when you get promoted. You know they put the new rank on your collar and the buddy you pick uses both fists to drive the pins into your collar. (OUCH!)

I am not saying it is right or wrong, just that the way it is. Rites of passage just seem to be a way of life especially in professions where the stress and pressures of the job get to people on a daily basis.

 

[JPINFV]

Let me ask you, is your truck actually *your truck* or are you representing a company, district, and EMS system as a whole?

Since the entire "your/my truck" got brought up, I want to respond to this. When I was working, I'd say both applied. Yes, it wasn't my truck in the sense of ownership. Yes, I was representing my company. However, yes, the truck is "mine" in the sense that, as a trained and licensed medical provider, my crew and I bore the ultimate responsibility with how that unit operated. Regardless of if I was driving, attending, or assisting a paramedic, RN, RT, or physician, the vehicle is -mine- and the patient is -mine-. Just because I'm planning on hopping in the driver seat when we start transporting doesn't relieve me in making sure that my partner is providing appropriate care (and, God willing, my partner would do the same to me). Just because I'm attending doesn't mean I'm relieved of the responsibility to ensure that the vehicle is being operated in a safe manner. From the second that unit is assigned to me to the time I clock out, I am responsible (morally/ethically if not legally) to ensure that the vehicle is ready to respond and that calls are handled appropriately. In emergency medicine, we do not have the luxury of saying "it's not my job."

 

[DrParasite]

Everyone needs to unwind. Especially people with high-stress jobs. Subconsciously, however, unwinding in such wrong ways makes things worse. Tons of research shows this with stress management.

never said it was healthy. in fact, I can recall one time when, after going on a call when a guy hacked up his sister, slashed his 1 year old niece and stabbed his 5 year old daughter, my boss asked me if there was anything i needed. My response was "well, i could use a beer." his response was "be serious." and I told him "I was." is it healthy? no. does research say alcohol is the worst thing to do? yep. do I wish I could have gotten a beer at that time? absolutely.

If there does in fact need to be a little separate society for people in EMS, despite the fact that for some reason anyone in business or any other occupation can somehow manage to live normal lives without doing so (why is that?) then as professionals they ought not to "protect" their "common good" in a way that lowers them to such a base, crude, uncouth level.

not just EMS. firefighters are the same way. ditto police officers. I would even group ER staff members as well. probably even active members of the military, esp those who are deployed. and if you disgree, then you don't know enough firefighter, cops, ER nurses, and soldier.

Since we are comparing, then Military Basic Training should = EMT School. When someone completes military basic training, do they have to undergo subconscious initiation tests in order to be "accepted" into the military? Heck no. They got "hired," they are now on the team. Right? I can't speak first hand, but I've heard nothing contrary.

not having been in the military, I have to say probably not. EMT class is almost exclusively classroom time. 120 hours. from what I have been told, basic training is several weeks. it is physically grueling, and they break you down (mentally) multiple times and then bring you back up until you are a good member of the team.

If you want a better comparison, it would be EMT school and the police academy. Do you know the rules? yes. but once you graduate, with your PD cert, you still have to get a job, then you get matched up with an FTO have to learn the department rules and regs, and after a while, you are accepted as a member of the team.

Same with EMT's. If you don't treat new employees as full teammates (despite that you will expect them to treat you as one) then that is pure bogus. Coaching is fine. But a "rookie" period in which you treat said person as an inferior human being and still a partial outsider is completely inappropriate. Should never have hired them in the first place if you feel that pulling something like that is needed.

not an inferior human; just not a full fledged member of the team. trust is not given, it is earned. respect is not given, it is earned. also remember, it isn't personal. everyone started out on the outside, and had to earn their way in. EVERYONE. everyone was an outsider, until they earned their spot.

Similarly, not everyone makes it. not everyone is accepted, for one reason or another. the respect of others is earned, and that makes it MORE valuable then just something that is given freely. and some people lose the respect of others, while others can spend their entire careers trying to earn the respect of their peers.

You say "It is simply a job." and then "EMS is a unique society." Those statements two are contrary. Simply a job means a daily activity for which one receives wages. A society implies a whole new facet of living style. Which I still don't believe EMS should ever be. These internally conflicting statements need to be resolved if you can change your wording or however you want to try to do it.

EMS is a job. it is a career. it is a way of life. it is a culture. it has its own personality types. it has it's own quirks. it has it's own way of doing things.

just like the PD and FD, when a girl starts dating a guy, she has to accept the culture. it's part of his life. he might work nights, days, holidays. he might have bad days, and really really bad days. and as my ex, who was a bedding designer after graduating from the fashion institute in NYC, learned soon into our relationship, I wasn't always able to make Thanksgiving, occasionally spent nights away from my bed (usually when I was working overnight shifts), and once in a while came home from work and just needed to sleep before I would be a pleasant boy friend.

again, unless you are actually in the system, you can't understand