Requiring Post-High School education? (Associates Degrees / Bachelor Degrees / Etc)

[TatuICU]

Show me some data! Without it, it's hard to defend education standards...

It is?

OK, well let's try this for example. Pre-Med students are required to take calculus classes. Now, i doubt many clinicians will be using harmonic analysis whilst treating their patients, but it's not about that. It's about making sure your physician has the ability to conceptualize difficult ideas and work through difficult problems. I don't want some dip:censored::censored::censored::censored: that can't get their head around Dx/Dy making decisions, presumable based in physiologic principles that they may or may not understand, about my health care.

Failing that, well-rounded education helps you to develop as a person and challenges you to see things from different perspectives which in turn can open up mental doors and pathways that maybe you hadn't been through before. I think there is something to be said for education just for education's sake.

Now, as to how it affects paramedics? Well how can a paramedic realistically, with a straight face, want to be taken seriously as a healthcare professional when many go to school and have the same standard of education as someone in an HVAC or auto mechanics class? A paramedic who wants more freedom and more respect should have at least a sound basic knowledge of chemical, biological, microbiological, anatomical, and pathophysiological principles. And I'm sorry, but you're simply not going to get that at the vo-tech. Most science courses you'll take at a uni or college and even community college these days have a professor teaching it with a PhD. They have successfully demonstrated that they have a degree of mastery of the discipline that makes them qualified to teach and explain the concepts involved. You're not going to find that at a vo-tech.

Bottom line is this, paramedics should want more education, the profession should have more education, and if you want to be seen as a true profession and get the pay and benefits across the board that many medics feel they're entitled to, the profession needs more education.

How anyone can argue against educational standards is just.....I don't get it guys.

 

[RocketMedic]

That being said, where is the data showing that any of that is true? Evidence-based medicine is a beast, isn't it?

 

[Veneficus]

That being said, where is the data showing that any of that is true? Evidence-based medicine is a farse, isn't it?

Fixed it for you.

 

[TatuICU]

That being said, where is the data showing that any of that is true? Evidence-based medicine is a beast, isn't it?

Showing that what is true? That other healthcare pros that have degreed professions make a ton more money, have a ton more opportunities, get tons more respect, have a ton more lobbyists, and far more room for professional advancement than paramedics?

Or what else? That education leads to more educated people? Hey, if medics want to stay on the same educational level as an auto mechanic, may the force be with you. We'll just let things stay the same as they are now until medics are eventually done away with and the services handled by more educated, qualified, and higher paid professionals.

What about any of this has to do with evidence based medicine?

The fact that we're even talking about this as it has to do with the lack of pay, respect, and advancement opportunities should be evidence enough to you.

 

[Justice]

I understand what you are saying, and agree what you are getting at. To me, it is not so much about a change in the quality of care as it is in progressing our field towards professional licensure. Why should nursing be paid three to four times the amount our service is paid for?

Because a Nurse has a 4 year degree?

Because a Nurse paid $22k a year to attend school for 2-4 years. while a medic pays $5k for a total program? ( My girlfriend paid 22k a year for her undergrade and 55k for her nursing program)

There is no point in comparing a nurse and a medic. They are completely different

Wanna know the biggest difference between a nurse and a medic? Nurses have fought to raise the education requirements While as we can see here Medics fight against progress

 

[Veneficus]

What about any of this has to do with evidence based medicine?

I think they are trying to using the arguement of research to justify cost/benefit analysis like in medical treatments and procedures.

But as I said it is truly a farse.

Where is the evidence showing EMS should use backboards for any benefit?

Where is the evidence that shows current paramedics provide valuable service?

Where is the evidence showing protocols for overtreatment with things like oxygen can justify their cost/benefit?

ACLS drugs? No evidence for benefit, so the cost is unjustifyable. But here we are.

That is the falacy, you cannot demand evidence for future practices but not evidence for what you are doing now.

The fact that we're even talking about this as it has to do with the lack of pay, respect, and advancement opportunities should be evidence enough to you.

Should be...

But apparently isn't.

 

[TatuICU]

Where is the evidence that shows current paramedics provide valuable service?

ACLS drugs? No evidence for benefit, so the cost is unjustifyable. But here we are.

Come on Ven, plenty of paramedics out there do good job and there are many people out there who wouldn't be alive if it weren't for their services.

Here's also something that bears looking into to: tiny.cc/CCPs

I can't argue against the ACLS thing save for anti-dysrhythmic therapies. I also feel metoprolol should be looked at as an addition. I do believe epi can improve ROSC but not long term survival/discharge from hospital and in the end that should be the only thing we really care about.

 

[Veneficus]

Come on Ven, plenty of paramedics out there do good job and there are many people out there who wouldn't be alive if it weren't for their services.

I agree fully, but where are the studies showing it?

There are none.

If we apply that same logic to the "where is the evidence education will translate to clinical outcomes."

They argue without studies showing it makes a clinical difference to raise education, paramedic education standards should not be raised.

Logically, there are no studies showing that having paramedics make a difference, so we should stop fielding medics, because there is no proof it will make a difference.

(I am not arguing against your point, I am demonstrating the double standard in the argument against raising educational standards in the absence of research.)

 

[TatuICU]

I agree fully, but where are the studies showing it?

There are none.

If we apply that same logic to the "where is the evidence education will translate to clinical outcomes," argument.

They argue without studies showing it makes a clinical difference to raise education, paramedic education standards should not be raised.

Logically, there are no studies showing that having paramedics make a difference, so we should stop fielding medics, because there is no proof it will make a difference.

(I am not arguing against your point, I am demonstrating the double standard in the argument against raising educational standards in the absence of research.)

Ok, got ya.

 

[JPINFV]

So when can say Indians, Pakistanis, or those going to schools in the Caribbean sit for the USMLE?

For steps 1 and 2 they have to simply be at a school that meets Education Commission on Foreign Medical Graduate (ECFMG) criteria. For step 3 they have to have graduated and have ECFMG certification.

 

[mycrofft]

Going back to the OP roots:


1. Not to sure how legit it is but i heard on the news they are going to try and make it to where u have to have your associates or you will no longer be a emt.

2. So since i am one already am i safe?

3. What about getting my nremt-p will i have to get my associates?

4. This is ridiculous


Respectively:
1. Ask your EMSA. Ask your employer.
2. No, probably need to meet it within a deadline period or at next relicensure.
3. Have to? Depends upon your state's requirements and the school you attend, or mail your money to for a certificate. Schools vary.
4. They did this to firefighters in many places in the late Seventies and early Eighties, we lost good firefighters because they didn't WANT to become EMTs as well. At my nursing college, licensed and certified instructors were given three years to get their baccalaureates, with notice that the MSN requirement was coming next. It is not unprecedented, nor ridiculous.

I suggest you look into your options now, don't wait. Maybe if you cannot afford it you can get a loan and figure out a working arrangement with your employer to let you still work, as well as study and attend classes. Look into time frames, perhaps once you begin studies you get a little "stretch" in the deadline.
And don't give up on EMTLIFE! Your experience could be enlightening for us all.

 

[JPINFV]

This is the main issue. Is it EMS agency job to make sure a person have baseline of education when wanting to work in EMS field? The simple answer is no. Regulations are set up to make sure ems personal/public stay safe. It have nothing to do with mandating that a person get understanding of what education can do for them. That should be personal choice of each person

In a trade, it's the states job, be it the "Local EMS Agency" (county or region for non-California people) or the state EMS authority or the state legislature.

In a profession, it's the profession's job (self governance). For example, the state lays down guidelines for medical education, but no one cares because the accreditation requirements from the respective non-government organizations surpasses those anyways.

Is it the employer's job? No. However depending on the services offered by the employer offers, it's the employer's job to make sure that their employees have the abilities to meet the demand of the job. Of course the main challenge here is that Medicare still views EMS as a taxi service.

I think paramedic should do whatever is practical to keep person alive while on their way to the hospital. Paramedic do not have equipment in the field to find out what is really wrong with them.All they really can do is keep person comfortable and alive until they can get to the hospital where higher level professional can take over. So while i have no problem with paramedic thinking, the scope of thinking don't have that much room to go up.

I agree that paramedics should be thinking vs protocol drones. However, the entry requirements needs to ensure that paramedics can think in contrast to blindly following a cookbook-ocol.

 

[DrParasite]

Of course the main challenge here is that Medicare still views EMS as a taxi service.

which is a huge hurdle.

for EMTs, what would you change the program too? enlish I & II, psyc, sociology, then what? and would you keep the EMT as the capstone 6 credit class?

in NJ, the most paramedic programs ends with an associates degree. one nondegree program requires a BS to get in. and MONOC's doesn't give a degree. if we were to increase the paramedic training to a BS, than what additional courses would you want too add?

 

[mycrofft]

If you educate a paramedic how close to a PA does he become?

 

[looker]

This thread turned in to same as all others on this issue which is respect and money. You not going to get government to require minimum level of education because it will result in you getting more money at work and be more respected.

A practical reason is needed and there is none. You can argue all you want on this issue but at the end of the day it's not going to happen anytime soon if ever. You're not a doctor, not RN and not PA. You work in ambulance for the most part doing transport. Even for those medics that run 911 they control bleeding if necessary, control pain(make patient comfortable), etc and get to the hospital ASAP. If there was real need for more education we would have doctor work on ambulances.

 

[MedicBrew]

If you educate a paramedic how close to a PA does he become?

About 2-3 years away.

 

[MedicBrew]

If you educate a paramedic how close to a PA does he become?

This thread turned in to same as all others on this issue which is respect and money. You not going to get government to require minimum level of education because it will result in you getting more money at work and be more respected.

A practical reason is needed and there is none. You can argue all you want on this issue but at the end of the day it's not going to happen anytime soon if ever. You're not a doctor, not RN and not PA. You work in ambulance for the most part doing transport. Even for those medics that run 911 they control bleeding if necessary, control pain(make patient comfortable), etc and get to the hospital ASAP. If there was real need for more education we would have doctor work on ambulances.

That’s a pretty Pessimistic outlook.

How can increasing your knowledge be a bad thing….ever?

 

[looker]

That’s a pretty Pessimistic outlook.

How can increasing your knowledge be a bad thing….ever?

I a not saying education is a bad thing. I am saying government is very unlikely to require it because it do not bring any practical thing to ems that requires having aa/as for emt and bs/ba for medics.

 

[systemet]

I a not saying education is a bad thing. I am saying government is very unlikely to require it because it do not bring any practical thing to ems that requires having aa/as for emt and bs/ba for medics.

Really?

How educated should someone be to decide whether to perform RSI?
How educated should someone be to decide when to treat hyperkalemia?
How educated should someone be to interpret 12-lead ECG or administered thrombolytics?
How educated should someone be to monitor (or for that matter, insert) arterial lines?
How educated should someone be to monitor a balloon pump?
How educated should someone be to decide when to intubate a pediatric patient?
How educated should someone be to respond and care for a suicidal individual?
How educated should someone be to try and interpret a chest x-ray?
How educated should someone be to interpret lab work? * And bear in mind this isn't just an IFT / flight thing anymore, with expanding point of care.
How educated should someone be to be flying into small communities where the patient may not have been seen by a physician but may be critically ill?
How educated should someone be to be performing suturing?
How educated should someone be to perform ultrasonography?
ABG intrepretation?

And these are just some of the skills that are currently being used by paramedics in different regions.

Even if you strip most of that away -- really, is two years adequate training and preparation for what we do? Especially for the guys saying we should treat and release -- who got a really good background education for doing that in medic school? Or people talking about prescribing for paramedics? Who has the microbiology / pathophysiology / pharmacology to do that? How many of us can even read and critically analyse the research literature that supports (or in some cases opposes) aspects of our practice?

Part of the benefit of becoming more educated is you become more aware to the gaps and limitations of your existing knowledge and the fuzziness and greyness of the world in general.

 

[Veneficus]

How educated should someone be to be performing suturing?

Agree with all except this one.

I know of no paramedics that use anything more than simple suture techniques outside of the hand, face, or joint outside of the war/remote environments, where anything is better than nothing anyway.

Even things like delayed primary closure or reclosing a (forgive my spelling) dehisced wound are relatively simply procedures.

(far simpler than interpreting an EKG or intubating)