Should EMS/Fire be armed?

ffemt8978

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It’s not “training” it’s actual video and hands on training.

The discussion on this thread is not about outdrawing anyone. It’s about carrying a concealed firearm legally and responsibly on the job, and having the opportunity to equalize a situation where your own, your partner’s or an innocent bystanders life could potentially be on the line before law enforcement intervention is available, or before you have an opportunity to safely exit a scene which suddenly becomes unsafe.
Will I end up hurt? Probably. However, although there aren’t many, there definitely are more documented events proving it’s better to carry concealed as a prehospital care provider than not.

You don’t have to carry a firearm if you choose not to. But you can’t force me not to. You won’t even know I am unless the unthinkable happens.
Nor can you ignore the practical limitations on using a CCW in the back of an ambulance by simply declaring it is not part of the discussion.
 

FiremanMike

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It’s not “training” it’s actual video and hands on training.

The discussion on this thread is not about outdrawing anyone. It’s about carrying a concealed firearm legally and responsibly on the job, and having the opportunity to equalize a situation where your own, your partner’s or an innocent bystanders life could potentially be on the line before law enforcement intervention is available, or before you have an opportunity to safely exit a scene which suddenly becomes unsafe.
Will I end up hurt? Probably. However, although there aren’t many, there definitely are more documented events proving it’s better to carry concealed as a prehospital care provider than not.

You don’t have to carry a firearm if you choose not to. But you can’t force me not to. You won’t even know I am unless the unthinkable happens.
It's all fun, games, and conjecture until someone rams your medic while responding to a call and your clothes get cut off in the trauma room.. Or you wrestle with a pysch patient and the state trooper sees the handle of your gun in your pocket.. Or you are goofing around at the station and someone reaches their hand into your pocket.. Then there's going to be a lot of difficult questions about why and how long you've had a firearm on duty.

To be honest, they won't really be that long and difficult, it'll just start with "you're" and end with "fired"..

If someone draws on me in the back of the medic, there is about 100 things that will need to happen before I'll have a chance to draw my weapon, at which point I'd either be dead or the bad guy wouldn't be a threat anymore.
 
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Less of a question using a gun in close quarters than a bad guy being between you and a door somewhere very lonely. A baton is way more practical in close quarters like an ambulance and you don't have to wind up on the dome and swing for the fences to use one effectively.
 

ffemt8978

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Let us not forget that EMS goes into a myriad of places where it is illegal to carry a weapon, even with a CCW (jails, schools, bars, mental health facilities, etc). What do you do with your weapon then?
 
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Let us not forget that EMS goes into a myriad of places where it is illegal to carry a weapon, even with a CCW (jails, schools, bars, mental health facilities, etc). What do you do with your weapon then?
Full disclosure...just contributing to the conversation...I don't think being strapped is a good idea for EMS folks....
 

Tigger

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It’s not “training” it’s actual video and hands on training.

The discussion on this thread is not about outdrawing anyone. It’s about carrying a concealed firearm legally and responsibly on the job, and having the opportunity to equalize a situation where your own, your partner’s or an innocent bystanders life could potentially be on the line before law enforcement intervention is available, or before you have an opportunity to safely exit a scene which suddenly becomes unsafe.
Will I end up hurt? Probably. However, although there aren’t many, there definitely are more documented events proving it’s better to carry concealed as a prehospital care provider than not.

You don’t have to carry a firearm if you choose not to. But you can’t force me not to. You won’t even know I am unless the unthinkable happens.
So do I have a right to not be killed by the gun that you introduced into the situation despite not having the ability to retain it?
 

ITBITB13

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Nor can you ignore the practical limitations on using a CCW in the back of an ambulance by simply declaring it is not part of the discussion.
Not ignoring the limitations one bit. I totally respect that they’re there.
It's all fun, games, and conjecture until someone rams your medic while responding to a call and your clothes get cut off in the trauma room.. Or you wrestle with a pysch patient and the state trooper sees the handle of your gun in your pocket.. Or you are goofing around at the station and someone reaches their hand into your pocket.. Then there's going to be a lot of difficult questions about why and how long you've had a firearm on duty.

To be honest, they won't really be that long and difficult, it'll just start with "you're" and end with "fired"..

If someone draws on me in the back of the medic, there is about 100 things that will need to happen before I'll have a chance to draw my weapon, at which point I'd either be dead or the bad guy wouldn't be a threat anymore.
Same “ramming” could happen to me in my private vehicle.
I don’t go around “wrestling” with patients on a daily basis. But I can assure you that my holster and retention combination does not print or become exposed in any one of these theoretical scenarios.
Nor do I or my coworkers go around sticking our hands in each others pockets for poops and giggles.
Neither of which you are required to answer without a union representative and/or an attorney present if you have the legal ccw.
I love your 100 thing argument. It’s absolutely right. I wouldn’t ccw on the job to whip it out whenever possible. It’s a last resort.
Less of a question using a gun in close quarters than a bad guy being between you and a door somewhere very lonely. A baton is way more practical in close quarters like an ambulance and you don't have to wind up on the dome and swing for the fences to use one effectively.
Yes, but you always want to have the last resort option of NOT bringing a baton to a gun fight. IMO though, it’s a lot harder to conceal a baton adequately, they are alot heavier, and unless you’re a security guard I’m not too knowledgeable on baton certifications.
Let us not forget that EMS goes into a myriad of places where it is illegal to carry a weapon, even with a CCW (jails, schools, bars, mental health facilities, etc). What do you do with your weapon then?
I won’t talk about my personal/theoretical firearm securing methods, as to not put out where I work/live, nor do I actually carry at work. But it’s as simple as placing a locking personal safe in a hidden location within your ambulance, and then locking said ambulance.
Full disclosure...just contributing to the conversation...I don't think being strapped is a good idea for EMS folks....
And it’s totally your right to think so.
So do I have a right to not be killed by the gun that you introduced into the situation despite not having the ability to retain it?
You most definitely do. But with that opinion we might as well ban all guns. I have the right to not be killed by a drunk driver, so we might as well ban all cars and alcohol.
My retention of my firearm is not an issue. The only way someone would be able to take possession of my firearm would be to incapacitate me, and search through my pockets, find my hidden pocket, and then proceed to take it.
Again, the actual drawing of a firearm is a complete last resort before bailing, using your tablet/clipboard etc, or getting hands on.


Btw, really loving this debate.
 

mgr22

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You most definitely do. But with that opinion we might as well ban all guns. I have the right to not be killed by a drunk driver, so we might as well ban all cars and alcohol.
I think you missed Tigger's point: that introducing a firearm into a conflict has unpredictable results.

Here in TN, we're responsible for our bullets no matter where we wanted them to go or what justification we think we had for using them. Watching videos and practicing scenarios won't give you control over what happens when it's for real, especially in close quarters. Someone besides you and the other shooter could get killed.

Being concerned about that isn't the same as wanting to ban all guns. It's just being realistic about risks.
 

CALEMT

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I'm as pro gun as anyone else on this forum. I own multiple firearms in multiple calibers. Hell, I even own NFA items. Even I wouldn't want to carry on duty. I carry every time I leave my house when I'm off duty, its comfortable, and I can dress around it.

I think people have this misconception of what it takes to draw, aim, fire, and follow-up while under stress. Now factor in that someone may possibly be within arms reach of you puts you as a massive tactical disadvantage, especially when doing all of that I just listed from concealment. I also think that people have a misconception of how easily it is to manipulate someones hand when holding an object. While they may not get the firearm from you, they will manipulate and move your hand pointing that firearm where you don't want it pointed.

Just my two cents, but if I ever have to draw on someone I will definitely make sure to be out of arms reach and out at a distance where someone won't be able to take a couple steps to get within arms reach of me. Again, just my two cents. Not trying to sway anyones opinion on a topic where a lot of people are one way or the other. Just giving maybe some different context.
 

DrParasite

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I think you missed Tigger's point: that introducing a firearm into a conflict has unpredictable results.
fair enough... but if a person carries 24/7, how does that change when they are on the ambulance? To take the even further, LEO carry 24/7, so shouldn't his point apply there as well?
Here in TN, we're responsible for our bullets no matter where we wanted them to go or what justification we think we had for using them. Watching videos and practicing scenarios won't give you control over what happens when it's for real, especially in close quarters. Someone besides you and the other shooter could get killed.
I'm pretty sure that's common in all 50 states, whether you are civilian, law enforcement, or military.

As for the carrying on duty against company policy, if you do chose to do that, and are carrying it concealed, no one should know you have it. If someone identifies that you have it, disciplinary action should be taken. if you do draw it, even appropriately, termination should be immediate. if you draw inappropriately, criminal charges should be filed, as appropriate, in addition to termination.

I still disagree with the concept that a person who carries 24/7 loses the ability to retain and use their firearm the instant they step foot on an ambulance.
 

mgr22

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fair enough... but if a person carries 24/7, how does that change when they are on the ambulance? To take the even further, LEO carry 24/7, so shouldn't his point apply there as well?
That's another topic. I commented on the special risks of firearms on ambulances, not whether they should be permitted.

Since you're asking, I'm not against sworn LEOs carrying anywhere. I trust them to manage the risks.
 

FiremanMike

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Same “ramming” could happen to me in my private vehicle.
I don’t go around “wrestling” with patients on a daily basis. But I can assure you that my holster and retention combination does not print or become exposed in any one of these theoretical scenarios.
Nor do I or my coworkers go around sticking our hands in each others pockets for poops and giggles.
Neither of which you are required to answer without a union representative and/or an attorney present if you have the legal ccw.
I love your 100 thing argument. It’s absolutely right. I wouldn’t ccw on the job to whip it out whenever possible. It’s a last resort.
You are legally able to carry in your private vehicle

No one plans on wrestling with a patient

Maybe horseplay doesn't happen at your station, it does at mine.

You are missing the forest for the trees. The point is your stance of "no one knows I carry a gun but me" may be outside of your control if a random scenario happens like the one examples I mentioned. At which point you will be confirmed to have at least violated company policy and then likely be guilty of carrying in a myriad of prohibited places which put you criminally liable. Your union steward won't be able to do a thing for you.

You mentioned you "might" keep a lockbox in the medic.. You're telling me you disarm and lock a weapon in the medic in view of your partner and trust him not to say anything? And if management were to happen upon this locked box with a firearm in it, your explanation would be what?
 

CCCSD

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I thought you weren’t carrying and it was all theoretical..?
Turns out you ARE carrying at work.
Does your employer know?
Does their Insurance Carrier know?
Is it authorized by policy with a written policy?
Who documents your training, which is composed of watching “videos” and some sort of skills?
If you enter a locked facility, what do you do with your handgun? Where do you secure it? You can’t bring it in, even to an ER.

Seems there’s MUCH more than you thought about…
 

FiremanMike

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Imagine the outcry if a paramedic shot and killed someone?

Imagine the ****-storm when it turns out they weren't supposed to be carrying that gun?
 

DrParasite

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Imagine the outcry if a paramedic shot and killed someone?

Imagine the ****-storm when it turns out they weren't supposed to be carrying that gun?
you mean the outcry that followed this?

or the outcry after this, when a Armed paramedic who was shot by Kyle Rittenhouse testifies he thought teen was an active shooter?

and refresh my memory, where was the outcry following this shooting?

and lets not forget the outcry anytime a LEO shoots someone... even if doing so saves their life and the life of a member of the public. I mean, there were people complaining when this woman shot an intruder over 10 bras, and the family demanded that the shooter be charged!

No offense, but all too often the public is crying foul before the facts are even known, and the public doesn't give a damn about the life of a public safety professional.

Should any paramedic shoot someone? No, however, if a person is trying to kill said paramedic, would I be shedding a tear if the threat is mitigated using deadly force? probably not.

Lets also be realistic: there is absolutely no data to support the claim that having a paramedic with a CCW permit and firearm would result in increased civilian deaths. Lots of opinions, lots of assumptions, lots of worse case scenario, but no actual data that shows the fear mongering would actually happen. And before you say that's because that's because no state in the US allows it, in 2020 there was a change in Virginia’s EMS regulations that removed the prohibition of firearm carriage by EMS employees on duty. The blanket ban was lifted by the state. Has anyone heard the reports of the on duty paramedics shooting civilians? I must have missed all that outcry....
 
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FiremanMike

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you mean the outcry that followed this?

or the outcry after this, when a Armed paramedic who was shot by Kyle Rittenhouse testifies he thought teen was an active shooter?

and refresh my memory, where was the outcry following this shooting?

and lets not forget the outcry anytime a LEO shoots someone... even if doing so saves their life and the life of a member of the public. I mean, there were people complaining when this woman shot an intruder over 10 bras, and the family demanded that the shooter be charged!

No offense, but all too often the public is crying foul before the facts are even known, and the public doesn't give a damn about the life of a public safety professional.

Should any paramedic shoot someone? No, however, if a person is trying to kill said paramedic, would I be shedding a tear if the threat is mitigated using deadly force? probably not.

Lets also be realistic: there is absolutely no data to support the claim that having a paramedic with a CCW permit and firearm would result in increased civilian deaths. Lots of opinions, lots of assumptions, lots of worse case scenario, but no actual data that shows the fear mongering would actually happen. And before you say that's because that's because no state in the US allows it, in 2020 there was a change in Virginia’s EMS regulations that removed the prohibition of firearm carriage by EMS employees on duty. The blanket ban was lifted by the state. Has anyone heard the reports of the on duty paramedics shooting civilians? I must have missed all that outcry....
You’re both making and simultaneously completely missing my point.

The general public doesn’t much care when first responders are killed, but they swiftly and publicly denounce when cops use deadly force.

The public backlash for a paramedic using a gun he wasn’t supposed to have would be intense, definitely not something I want to go through.
 

DrParasite

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The general public doesn’t much care when first responders are killed, but they swiftly and publicly denounce when cops use deadly force.
you're right... and yet, I don't see there being a push to disarm any members of law enforcement, except by idiots who want to disband the police. And that's a societal problem, where the lives of cops are held in a much lower regard than the general public, as well as a failure of political leadership to publicly stand up for the members of law enforcement, and denounce the activities of criminals.
The public backlash for a paramedic using a gun he wasn’t supposed to have would be intense, definitely not something I want to go through.
You know what? Neither do I.

However, I would much rather go through that public backlash than go to a paramedic's LODD funeral, and have to explain to his/her husband/wife & kids that mommy/daddy isn't coming home every again. Especially when the kid is going to ask me "why didn't daddy have his gun on him? he always carries it anytime he leaves the house."
 

DrParasite

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“the outcry after this, when a Armed paramedic who was shot by Kyle Rittenhouse testifies he thought teen was an active shooter?”

That wasn’t a “paramedic on duty” functioning in an EMS system, it was an Anarchist who was trying to kill someone due to politics. Let’s not make this “Paramedic” out to be a hero. He’s not. He’s a political thug, intent on repression of people rights.
I know... it was actually a person impersonating a paramedic in a state that he wasn't licensed to practice in. And I took great pleasure in watching him look like a complete moron on the witness stand, when the defense attorney tore him to shreds. Not only that, I hope his civil suit is dismissed, and he is the criminally charged for any crimes he committed that night (but I won't hold my breath, based on the sham trial that was held).

But look how the media framed him... they tried to portray him as a hero, who was trying to save lives. if only our media reported the facts accurately, instead of with a political agenda? Different topic, but the headline was all that people read.
 

FiremanMike

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You know what? Neither do I.

However, I would much rather go through that public backlash than go to a paramedic's LODD funeral, and have to explain to his/her husband/wife & kids that mommy/daddy isn't coming home every again. Especially when the kid is going to ask me "why didn't daddy have his gun on him? he always carries it anytime he leaves the house."
Or the more likely scenario:

“Daddy why don’t we have food to eat?”

“Well son, daddy got caught carrying a gun at work which violated some pretty big rules and I got fired”
 
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