Police forcing patient to go

Caspar

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Can the police force a patient to go to the hospital? There have been multiple times the police come to handcuff the patient when they don't cooperate. When they do this, are we obligated to transport or can the pt still RMA?
 

akflightmedic

Forum Deputy Chief
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It is a BS tactic that was abused MANY times by police in my areas of operation until such time I realized I had a voice, needed to advocate on behalf of the patient while also developing and maintaining harmonious relationships with the blue suits.

So MANY times they would tell a drunk or some other benign complaint they HAD to go with EMS or go to jail. It is BS and you should find a way to shut it down. They (the cops) fueled high transport rates and high ER abuse rates in some of the towns I worked in and YES this was very common and multiple times per shift. I have worked in a lot of "party" towns.
 

hometownmedic5

Forum Asst. Chief
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it's bs. They(the police) can't force you to take a patient against their will unless they are in custody or under a psych hold if they have the capacity to refuse care.

That being said, it happens all the time. I can't count how many patients I've transported because the cops told them they didn't have a choice....
 

EpiEMS

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There may be circumstances where the police may obligate a person to be treated/assessed (e.g. If they are under a psych hold or a prisoner), but generally speaking, EMS is NOT obligated to treat and transport somebody without a medical complaint.
 
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Caspar

Forum Crew Member
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A few times I've seen the police put psych holds on patients who were depressed and off their meds and didn't want to go to the closest hospital so is that essentially transporting against their will?
 

CALEMT

The Other Guy/ Paramaybe?
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A few times I've seen the police put psych holds on patients who were depressed and off their meds and didn't want to go to the closest hospital so is that essentially transporting against their will?

If they're on a 5150 hold then no. They've just essentially lost all their rights and the officer decides whats best for this person. If the patient is on a 5150 and doesn't want to go to the hospital it's not up to the patient.
 

EpiEMS

Forum Deputy Chief
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A few times I've seen the police put psych holds on patients who were depressed and off their meds and didn't want to go to the closest hospital so is that essentially transporting against their will?

I'm no LE expert, but that seems OK - they were subject to a hold so transport is indicated. I'm not sure if it's our business - practically speaking - whether LE puts somebody on a hold, much as it should probably be.
 

MedicChk85

Forum Ride Along
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We are the patient's advocate first and foremost. Secondly in my own personal experience I have been able to convince my patient to go willingly with me as a free individual instead of in handcuffs. I also try to let them know it's an opportunity to get their medications back on board to make them feel better.


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DesertMedic66

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"Well officer in just letting you know that if I drive 100 feet away and the patient says I do not want to go again then I am pulling over and letting them out.."
 

GMCmedic

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"Well officer in just letting you know that if I drive 100 feet away and the patient says I do not want to go again then I am pulling over and letting them out.."
Thats happened more than once.

I think the hospital or jail trick is usually a bluff. Sometimes it gets called. Its not right and ill be more than willing to let a patient out provided they are AO.

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Bullets

Forum Knucklehead
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"Well officer in just letting you know that if I drive 100 feet away and the patient says I do not want to go again then I am pulling over and letting them out.."
I just dont tell the cops this, ill tell the patient this when we get in the back of the truck. Ill tell them that they have an option to refuse and offer a ride to anywhere in town or maybe just over the border
 

vc85

Forum Crew Member
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Generally the police only force people to go if they are mental health holds or under arrest, so the situation rarely happens around here

However, I would be very, very leery of doing what some here are suggesting. I know you can't force someone who is alert and oriented to go, but what happens if someone was given the option of jail or hospital, then refused, went back to the original scene and killed someone?

You better hope either your agency indemnified you, you have a good insurance plan, or a good lawyer because you will need it for the lawsuit
 

hometownmedic5

Forum Asst. Chief
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In ma, an emergency psych hold is called a section 12 order. It is an involuntary commitment and must be signed by a physician, licsw, or police officer(rare). Once signed, the patient no longer has the right to refuse care or transport.

As I said, it's very rare for a cop to "section" a patient on their own. They are much more likely to browbeat or coerce a patient to go with us. It's not fair for us, or the patient, but it turns an arrest report and investigation into one paragraph on the shift report.
 

GMCmedic

Forum Deputy Chief
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Generally the police only force people to go if they are mental health holds or under arrest, so the situation rarely happens around here

However, I would be very, very leery of doing what some here are suggesting. I know you can't force someone who is alert and oriented to go, but what happens if someone was given the option of jail or hospital, then refused, went back to the original scene and killed someone?

You better hope either your agency indemnified you, you have a good insurance plan, or a good lawyer because you will need it for the lawsuit
Ill take my chances with the lawsuit over the criminal trial for kidnapping.

There are no IFs. If you transport a CAO person that is not in custody or on a hold, against their will you are breaking the law.



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vc85

Forum Crew Member
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Yes if the person is CAO you have to let them leave, but there is no law saying you can't try to use your soft/interpersonal skills to try to talk them down

"If you want to leave you can, but I recommend you go get checked out, it will give everyone some time to cool off"

Also, to throw a monkey wrench in, what if they tell you they are going to commit a crime. I.e. If they say "drive me to my house, so I can get my gun and kill that cop" etc If you drive them there that is called aiding and abetting and accessory to murder
 

GMCmedic

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Yes if the person is CAO you have to let them leave, but there is no law saying you can't try to use your soft/interpersonal skills to try to talk them down

"If you want to leave you can, but I recommend you go get checked out, it will give everyone some time to cool off"

Also, to throw a monkey wrench in, what if they tell you they are going to commit a crime. I.e. If they say "drive me to my house, so I can get my gun and kill that cop" etc If you drive them there that is called aiding and abetting and accessory to murder

Well I dont know about your system but the only place I drive patients to is the ER (or predetermined destination for transfers). Taxi cabs take healthy people home.

But to answer your question, the patient can sign a refusal (or just leave), and then I will notify PD and quickly leave the area since the scene is no longer safe.

Homicidal ideation is grounds for CIT (crisis intervention aka 72 hour hold) so they would end up in the hospital anyway.

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