Pay ranges for CNAs with an EMT-B in Ca?

ClarkKent

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I know that almost everyone (if not all of you) on this forum is part of the EMS system and are only EMT (Basic, Intermediate, or Paramedic) but I am looking at getting my CNA cert along with my EMT-B. I know what you are thinking, why get go for a CNA when I am already an EMT-B? The reason is the market is flooded with EMT-B in my area (Sacramento, Ca) and it is harder the snot to get a job as an EMT-B (to get into the paramedic program you have to be in the health care field for one year or more before they will even look at you at the college that I am going to and that is why I am getting my CNA cert.) What I would like to know is what do CNAs make in California and would having my EMT-B helps me out in getting paid more or have an upper advantage of getting hired?

I have searched this forum along with the net with no real luck. Any help finding the answer to my question will be much appreciated.
 

MrBrown

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Go get your AAS in allied health, LVN/LPN or something that includes a decent dose of A&P, pharmacology and pathophysiology then go to work as an ER tech or in the ICU

1) All the bio-medical science you learn will cross over to Paramedic and chances are it'll be on-par if not greater than what you learn in Paramedic school (even tho CA does require all medic programs to be COAEMSP/CAAHEP accredited)

2) You will get a hell of a lot more exposure than changing sheets, recording vital signs and feeding people on NG tubes

3) Should Paramedic not be your thing you'll be in a good position to upgrade to AAN or BSN and get a job pretty easy
 

VentMedic

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Go get your AAS in allied health, LVN/LPN or something that includes a decent dose of A&P, pharmacology and pathophysiology then go to work as an ER tech or in the ICU

1) All the bio-medical science you learn will cross over to Paramedic and chances are it'll be on-par if not greater than what you learn in Paramedic school (even tho CA does require all medic programs to be COAEMSP/CAAHEP accredited)

2) You will get a hell of a lot more exposure than changing sheets, recording vital signs and feeding people on NG tubes

3) Should Paramedic not be your thing you'll be in a good position to upgrade to AAN or BSN and get a job pretty easy

LVN/LPN do not work in ICUs and in most places they do not work in an ICU. The LVN/LPN is essentially a technically nursing certificate with approximately one year of training/education. I advise no one to go that route as the opportunites are usually limited to poorly run nursing homes who scrimp on hiring as few RNs as possible.

You also have no clue what a CNA does.

In California, for an EMT-B to get a job in the ED, they will need an acceptable Phlebotomy class and certification from the state which is more hours and better managed by the state than the EMT.

If you got a job as a CNA in a hospital, let them train you to float everywhere to see many different types of work areas and patients. You will learn to work with much more equipment and many more different disease processes than you will as an EMT. You will also have knowlegable staff around you to answer your questions which another EMT or even Paramedic would not.

With some CNA experience, an EMT-B and Phlebotomy cert, you will have a better chance of getting a job as an ED tech. But no, the EMT-B in CA will rarely open up many doors and the job market is very competitive right now.
 

subliminal1284

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Go for it if you want to be a certified posterior wiper. You can make just as much money working in retail than you can as a CNA.
 

VentMedic

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Go for it if you want to be a certified posterior wiper. You can make just as much money working in retail than you can as a CNA.

And yet another one who is ignorant about what other health care workers do.

Are you jealous of the CNA and that is why you feel it is necessary to make such remarks?

CNAs do have more earning potential than EMT-Bs and more job opportunites. They also can work in parts of the hospital where an EMT-B has never gone and with very ill patients. They may actually get a chance to take care of patients other than just providing a real fast ambulance ride.

They also do more "skills" than an EMT-B and may even participate in CPR more times a month than an EMT-B will see in several years.

Some people do go into medicine with the understanding there are many factors involved and it is not just as the TV shows with a lot of "cool trauma".

It is a shame that some do not understand what patient care is all about. For this reason I believe CNAs would be of more value on BLS trucks than EMTs since they do see medical patients and know more than just first aid. I also believe the clinical rotations for the EMT-B should be more like that of the CNA to where they must take at least 100 sets of vitals on many different patients instead of doing time around a coffee pot at a slow station or riding in the back of a truck hoping for a "cool call".
 
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subliminal1284

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My mom was a CNA for awhile so I know well what their job description is. And yes 80% of the time all youre doing is wiping rear ends or doing other dirty work for the nurses. If you like it more power to you but Ill stay very far away from it.
 

VentMedic

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My mom was a CNA for awhile so I know well what their job description is. And yes 80% of the time all youre doing is wiping rear ends or doing other dirty work for the nurses. If you like it more power to you but Ill stay very far away from it.

Did you ever go to work with your mother?

Was she frustrated because she was a working parent and didn't have a chance to go to college?

Were you resentful that she had to work taking care of patients instead of being at home with you?

Do you have a low opinion of your mother?

You seem to have some very deep resentment towards CNAs and this could be just an issue with your mother. That does not give you cause to bash other health care workers when you have no working knowledge of CNAs.

Since you want nothing to do with basic aspects of patient care, why are you even an EMT?
 
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subliminal1284

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Did you ever go to work with your mother?

Was she frustrated because she was a working parent and didn't have a chance to go to college?

Were you resentful that she had to work taking care of patients instead of being at home with you?

Do you have a low opinion of your mother?

You seem to have some very deep resentment towards CNAs and this could be just an issue with your mother. That does not give you cause to bash other health care workers when you have no working knowledge of CNAs.

Since you want nothing to do with basic aspects of patient care, why are you even an EMT?

No she wasnt frustrated

Yes I was with her at work often

No I wasnt resentful at all

I have a high opinion of my mother

I just call it as I see it. If someone enjoys cleaning up feces, bathing people, and making beds then go for it, but me personally Ill pass.
 
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VentMedic

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No she wasnt frustrated

Yes I was with her at work often

No I wasnt resentful at all

I have a high opinion of my mother

I just call it as I see it. If someone enjoys cleaning up feces, bathing people, and making beds then go for it, but me personally Ill pass.

Then maybe she just liked to complain alot. Since she complained and hated her job you figure you should also hate CNAs even though YOU have no first hand experiece?

Again, you have so very little knowledge of what the CNA does and your views on basic patient care are just simply disgusting. Again, why are you in any form of patient care? If your mother hated it why do you think it'll be any better for you? Imagine! Having to touch those nasty patients who might have a bowel movement!

You probably don't bother changing the sheets on your stretcher either since that would be beneath your "skill" level.
 

subliminal1284

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Im sorry my memory must be lacking because I dont ever remember saying she complained about it. My opinions are based solely on what I saw personally. One doesnt have to actually do something to know they dont like it. Like I said if you like it good for you. But to me its literally a sh*tty job.
 

VentMedic

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Im sorry my memory must be lacking because I dont ever remember saying she complained about it. My opinions are based solely on what I saw personally. One doesnt have to actually do something to know they dont like it. Like I said if you like it good for you. But to me its literally a sh*tty job.

I'll ask again, if such basic patient care tasks repulse you, WHY are you an EMT? Are you just going to abandon a patient that is incontinent or covered in feces?

Did your mother make you tag along and how old were you when you saw her work?

How old are you now as I may be wrong to even assume you are an EMT? I just noticed you have not listed your training.

Every healthcare professional, even doctors, are expected to do some up close and personal aspects of patient care. If you have not started EMT training, you might reconsider for a cleaner profession and one that doesn't involve doing patient care.
 
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VentMedic

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The CNA is not for everyone since it does involve many more aspects of patient care than the EMT does. You shouldn't be shy about tending to a patient's personal needs.

Don't let a patient lay in feces because the EMT part of your training makes you think cleaning a patient is beneath you.

You will also need time management as you may be caring for up to 25 patients at a time. For EMT-B, you only have one.

The CNA may actually get to know all 25 of his/her patients.

You must be willing to accept additional training and be flexible. Take whatever training offered.

You must have a professional attitude and that should even be expected for the EMT-B as well but unfortunately that is not always the case. You will be dealing with families and other staff member closely. Teamwork will be stressed. Again, these are things that are not always stressed in EMT.
 
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Akulahawk

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LVN/LPN do not work in ICUs and in most places they do not work in an ICU. The LVN/LPN is essentially a technically nursing certificate with approximately one year of training/education. I advise no one to go that route as the opportunites are usually limited to poorly run nursing homes who scrimp on hiring as few RNs as possible.

You also have no clue what a CNA does.

In California, for an EMT-B to get a job in the ED, they will need an acceptable Phlebotomy class and certification from the state which is more hours and better managed by the state than the EMT.

If you got a job as a CNA in a hospital, let them train you to float everywhere to see many different types of work areas and patients. You will learn to work with much more equipment and many more different disease processes than you will as an EMT. You will also have knowlegable staff around you to answer your questions which another EMT or even Paramedic would not.

With some CNA experience, an EMT-B and Phlebotomy cert, you will have a better chance of getting a job as an ED tech. But no, the EMT-B in CA will rarely open up many doors and the job market is very competitive right now.
While the State does a good job with Phlebotomy certification... Required EMT hours are at about 120... whereas for a Phlebotomy cert, the following is required:
Q: What do I have to do to get a phlebotomy certification?
A: To become a CPT I
A person without any phlebotomy experience must meet the following:

* Have a minimum of a high school graduate equivalent or GED.
* Complete 40 hours phlebotomy class training from an approved school.
* Complete 40 hours phlebotomy practice that includes at least 50 venipunctures and 10 skin punctures.
* Pass an approved phlebotomy certification exam.
* Apply for certification, pay application fee.
To me... that looks like only 80 REQUIRED hours... which is less than the 120-ish required for EMT-1...
 

VentMedic

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While the State does a good job with Phlebotomy certification... Required EMT hours are at about 120... whereas for a Phlebotomy cert, the following is required:

To me... that looks like only 80 REQUIRED hours... which is less than the 120-ish required for EMT-1...

Do you not see the irony of this? Some EMTs want to start IVs or do venipuncture and even intubate with just 3 hours of extra training.

Remember that 80+ hours in only in phlebotomy. Many hospitals will also require they have a CPR card in addition to that which is 6 hours of the 120 for EMT. For the CNA, this 80+ hours are in ADDITION to the hours they take for CNA. Thus, that may give them over 200 hours. For PCT, in some areas it takes 700 hours which can be more than the Paramedic for some states with a broader patient care focus.

It is also ironic that the phlebotomist can get a national certification test that is accepted in most states. As well, there is a NATIONAL push for each state to certify their phlebotomists by national standards.

Level One is a mere "basic" or "limited". Don't forget there is a Level Two.

Also, how many EMTs can claim to have 60 patient contacts in their clinicals? How many EMT-Bs are required to do 60 IVs? How many Paramedics are required to do that number? Only 40 patient contacts are required for California Paramedics.

Of course phlebotomy is only one "skill" the CNA might perform. Don't forget EKGs along with all of their other patient care tasks. Many function as Ortho Techs and sometimes in the OR.
 
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Akulahawk

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Do you not see the irony of this? Some EMTs want to start IVs or do venipuncture and even intubate with just 3 hours of extra training.

Remember that 80+ hours in only in phlebotomy. Many hospitals will also require they have a CPR card in addition to that which is 6 hours of the 120 for EMT. For the CNA, this 80+ hours are in ADDITION to the hours they take for CNA. Thus, that may give them over 200 hours. For PCT, in some areas it takes 700 hours which can be more than the Paramedic for some states with a broader patient care focus.

It is also ironic that the phlebotomist can get a national certification test that is accepted in most states. As well, there is a NATIONAL push for each state to certify their phlebotomists by national standards.

Level One is a mere "basic" or "limited". Don't forget there is a Level Two.

Also, how many EMTs can claim to have 60 patient contacts in their clinicals? How many EMT-Bs are required to do 60 IVs? How many Paramedics are required to do that number? Only 40 patient contacts are required for California Paramedics.

Of course phlebotomy is only one "skill" the CNA might perform. Don't forget EKGs along with all of their other patient care tasks. Many function as Ortho Techs and sometimes in the OR.
Vent: I didn't say that I approved of the idea that an EMT should be allowed to do intubation or phlebotomy with a mere 3 hours of training. Subtract the Phlebotomy Cert from the CNA hours you posted for the CNA+Phlebotomy, and you get... (do some math here) 120 hours.

There are more levels to the California Phlebotomy Licenses than just 2... there's actually 3. You forgot the "Limited Phlebotomy Technician." The CPT-2 certification requires that you be a CPT-1, have 1020 hours OJTE, 20 more hours of CE, 20 arterial sticks, 50 venipunctures, and 10 skin punctures...

You can't get a CPT-2 certificate without the 1020 OJTE.

Also, a Paramedic is required to get 40 ALS contacts, of which establishing an IV line by itself, doesn't qualify.
 

VentMedic

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Also, a Paramedic is required to get 40 ALS contacts, of which establishing an IV line by itself, doesn't qualify.

Didn't I just state that?

I did state patient contacts. Also for ALS patient contact, the definition can vary from state to state and I believe CA also has a vague definition of "ALS". I know students that have used a tele patient with only a cardiac monitor in place as their "contact" in the Bay area.

Only 40 patient contacts are required for California Paramedics.

Do you think the Phlebotomy student is going to stick the same patient 50 times?

As well, in many states the 5 IVs and 5 tubes can be done on a manikin.

1020 hours for Phlebotomy 2? Many Paramedic programs don't require much over 3 -400 hours of clinical. For Texas, the total program is just 634 hours. For CA, the total minimum required is just a little under 1100.

CNA + Phlebotomy is a lot more than 120 hours. Again, it is at least 80 hours minimum for the first level of phlebotomy and many hospitals want their Phlebotomists to be Level 2 as soon as possible. The CNA is also more than 40 hours as the state check off list is quite extensive. The facility could easily lose their privilege of training if they falsify records.

I think this CNA program is near you.
http://wserver.arc.losrios.edu/~edhealth/CNA_Info.pdf
 
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EMSLaw

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Are we seriously arguing about whether CNAs or EMTs are lower on the medical totem pole?

Each one is a low-barrier-to-entry position, and both are pretty low in the medical hierarchy. Both, however, are important to the operation of our health care system.

And I seem to recall that we frequently discuss how clock-hour training should not be the barometer for determining how much education and training are sufficient for pre-hospital care providers.
 

Akulahawk

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I'll respond inline, to make my responses easier to discern.
Didn't I just state that?
No, actually, you didn't. You stated 40 contacts. Not 40 ALS contacts. Not 40 patient contacts without IV sticks.. You said "40 Patient Contacts".
I did state patient contacts. Also for ALS patient contact, the definition can vary from state to state and I believe CA also has a vague definition of "ALS". I know students that have used a tele patient with only a cardiac monitor in place as their "contact" in the Bay area.

As it turns out... an ALS contact is actually pretty specifically defined. (I was wrong about what doesn't count)
It is: An ALS contact is the performance of one or more ALS skills, except cardiac monitoring and basic CPR, on a patient


Do you think the Phlebotomy student is going to stick the same patient 50 times?

As well, in many states the 5 IVs and 5 tubes can be done on a manikin.

1020 hours for Phlebotomy 2? Many Paramedic programs don't require much over 3 -400 hours of clinical. For Texas, the total program is just 634 hours. For CA, the total minimum required is just a little under 1100.
Yes... 1020 hours of ON THE JOB EXPERIENCE (OJTE) as a CPT-1. (6 months FULL TIME Employment) Total instructional time is just 100 hours (40 didactic/40 practical for CPT-1 and 20 more didactic for CPT-2) and the time getting the various punctures.
CNA + Phlebotomy is a lot more than 120 hours. Again, it is at least 80 hours minimum for the first level of phlebotomy and many hospitals want their Phlebotomists to be Level 2 as soon as possible. The CNA is also more than 40 hours as the state check off list is quite extensive. The facility could easily lose their privilege of training if they falsify records.

Yes, I agreed that CNA + Phlebotomist is well over 120 hours. It's actually going to be more like 240 hours (in California). For CNA, California requires 60 hours didactic and 100 hours practical. California EMT requires (IIRC) 110 hours didactic and just 10 hours observation. It seems that CNA's do more with less education and more training. Personally, I think that EMT-B's should be getting more Practical Time than the 10 hours required...
 
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VentMedic

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Are we seriously arguing about whether CNAs or EMTs are lower on the medical totem pole?

Each one is a low-barrier-to-entry position, and both are pretty low in the medical hierarchy. Both, however, are important to the operation of our health care system.

And I seem to recall that we frequently discuss how clock-hour training should not be the barometer for determining how much education and training are sufficient for pre-hospital care providers.

The other issue here is the recognition of each. The CNA had a strict application process in place in CA before the EMT.

Also, with EMS always using the excuse of being so young, the Phlebotomist has established a national exam and is not in the process of getting the states to establish a certification process using this exam as a standard. This has actually occurred over just the past few years.

The changing rules and laboratory regulations also affect the Paramedic who have been doing lab draws in the field.

There is a lot to be learned from other professions.
 
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