nj first aid council

[Silver_Star]

so today some of the older members of my squad were talking about the training fund and saying how since the 4million isn't being put back its going to run out eventually. because of that they wanted to withdraw from the council so they could not have to worry about training members as emts so they could still answer calls without the need to have any emts in the back.
i was curious if this is actually legal and possible?

 

[DrParasite]

technically, they are right. in NJ, the paid agencies are looked over by the DOH, and the volunteers by the First aid council. So, if they are volunteers, and decide to withdraw, they could pretty much do what they want, which includes going on calls with no EMTs.

That all being said, it is a very bad idea. everyone should be trained to at least the EMT level. volunteers and paid like. if they are worried about funds, start billing insurance companies. let the DOH regular them. they are an untapped resource.

don't get me wrong, I think the NJFAC is a waste of hot air, and think the more squads who leave them the better we are in the state. however, if a squad i was on left the NJFAC, for the sole purpose of being able to run an ambulance with out have any EMTs on it, or without having any state approve EMS training on it, well, my resignation would be in the next day, and i would try to convince all my friends to quit as well.

running an ambulance without any training to do the job is just scary, and if your elders are looking to do that, well tell me what town it is in, so I know to have all my friends and family avoid it.

 

[TotowaEMT]

yea that sounds very scary and probably not legal

see page 23-24 of this document, pretty much says someone on board needs to be an emt
http://www.state.nj.us/health/ems/documents/ambulance_regs.pdf

 

[EMSLaw]

yea that sounds very scary and probably not legal

see page 23-24 of this document, pretty much says someone on board needs to be an emt
http://www.state.nj.us/health/ems/documents/ambulance_regs.pdf

Only paid EMS services are licensed by the Department of Health. They don't have any jurisdiction over volunteer ambulances. That's why, for example, volunteers can roll with one EMT and a driver, whereas paid ambulances require two EMTs.

Still, I don't think the idea of sending out an ambulance without an EMT is a good one. The only possible exception - and that doesn't seem to be what you have in mind - is if you were a volunteer company, and the EMT was meeting the ambulance at the scene, for squads where people respond from their homes. Fortunately, we sleep-in, so I don't have to worry about that.

 

[TotowaEMT]

thats crazy then if thats the case im with the guy above, let me know what town this is so I never drive through it.

 

[Silver_Star]

thats crazy then if thats the case im with the guy above, let me know what town this is so I never drive through it.

lol. thats just the older crowd talk. the guy who said this was from the days before emt's existed. hes 80-something yrs old and still going.
but the people who actually do take the calls such as myself would keep up on their EMT certs.

 

[51 RESCUE EMT-B]

That's not exactly true, we are a volunteer squad and we are governed by DOH. It was our choice to adhere to their regulations and have our ambulances inspected by them.

Only paid EMS services are licensed by the Department of Health. They don't have any jurisdiction over volunteer ambulances. That's why, for example, volunteers can roll with one EMT and a driver, whereas paid ambulances require two EMTs.

Still, I don't think the idea of sending out an ambulance without an EMT is a good one. The only possible exception - and that doesn't seem to be what you have in mind - is if you were a volunteer company, and the EMT was meeting the ambulance at the scene, for squads where people respond from their homes. Fortunately, we sleep-in, so I don't have to worry about that.

 

[DrParasite]

That's not exactly true, we are a volunteer squad and we are governed by DOH. It was our choice to adhere to their regulations and have our ambulances inspected by them.

negative sir. you can choose to be inspected, you can chose to be licensed. however, you are not REQUIRED to be licensed.

the FAC says you must run with 1 EMT. the DOH requires 2. if you are not paid, and resign from the FAC, you don't have to follow the rules of either.

 

[51 RESCUE EMT-B]

I never said required, I said choose to be.

negative sir. you can choose to be inspected, you can chose to be licensed. however, you are not REQUIRED to be licensed.

the FAC says you must run with 1 EMT. the DOH requires 2. if you are not paid, and resign from the FAC, you don't have to follow the rules of either.

 

[dewd09]

you don't have to follow the rules of either.

Cool, I'm going to New Jersey to run an ambulance service with my Subaru Outback!

 

[Jon]

That's not exactly true, we are a volunteer squad and we are governed by DOH. It was our choice to adhere to their regulations and have our ambulances inspected by them.

This also means that you can bill insurance, and as your volunteer base falls off, you can just add paid staff to fill the gaps.

My understanding is that as long as you are a volunteer, the training fund will still pay, correct, even if the squad isn't in the FAC.

I don't know. I work in Jersey occasionally. On a dual-certed PA/NJ truck. When I do ALS calls in NJ, I need to bring a RN along - which is kinda silly, but whatever. I avoid NJ Vollitics. Which seem to be worse than other places.

Jon

 

[DrParasite]

Cool, I'm going to New Jersey to run an ambulance service with my Subaru Outback!

as long as you are not going to bill anyone for the service, you can run an ambulance service on your motorcycle. or a bicycle. or a pogo stick. but you might have some issues getting red lights and sirens permits from the state DMV

and yes, that is a scary thought

 

[NJN]

Three cheers for those who dislike the First Grade council. I like my training fund but I don't like being associated with a bunch of yahoos who go volly as a drive on an ambulance for "fun".

 

[dewd09]

I'm a subscriber to Gold Cross, but I'm not an active provider anywhere. A screw went loose.

 

[JPINFV]

technically, they are right. in NJ, the paid agencies are looked over by the DOH, and the volunteers by the First aid council. So, if they are volunteers, and decide to withdraw, they could pretty much do what they want, which includes going on calls with no EMTs.

I just want to make sure I have this right. If I wanted to, I could go to NJ and just run an ambulance with who ever I want with what ever training I want so long as they are volunteer?

 

[EMSLaw]

I just want to make sure I have this right. If I wanted to, I could go to NJ and just run an ambulance with who ever I want with what ever training I want so long as they are volunteer?

That's pretty much my understanding. Of course, you wouldn't be dispatched to calls, but if you wanted to hand out leaflets with 'Fly by Nite Volunteer Amb-lance Svc. (Dial 908-555-SICK)' on them, you probably could.

I'm sure there's still legal liability to running an ambulance without EMTs, and it's a manifestly bad idea, and you wouldn't be able to have anything on it that's restricted to EMTs, like epi-pens...

But, yeah, pretty much. Crazy, right?

 

[BLSBoy]

I hate this state more and more every day.

Until our legislators grow a set of cajones, and say to all the bluelight terrorists and ambulance social clubs that THIS is the way things will be run, either you follow the rules, or we refuse to allow you to operate an ambulance any further, this is what we will deal with.

As for the EMT course, its what, 300-500 bucks?
I dont wanna hear how hurting most vollie agencies are.
Stop sending people to the embarassment in wildwood every year in dept vehicles.
Stop putting 50,000 LED flashies on the ambulances.
Obey the State Regs and BILL.

I hate this state, I hate this state, I really hate this state. <_<

 

[EMSLaw]

Until our legislators grow a set of cajones, and say to all the bluelight terrorists and ambulance social clubs that THIS is the way things will be run, either you follow the rules, or we refuse to allow you to operate an ambulance any further, this is what we will deal with.

Slapping that self-righteous brush around a bit thick, aren't we? I mean, I don't like the way things in this state operate any more than you do (I think), but there are good and bad Vollie squads, just like there are good and bad paid services.

And for the record, I do not, and will not have, a blue light in my car. Mainly since there is no reason for me ever to respond to a call in my POV unless I happen to come upon a crash on the side of the road - in which situation I won't need a blue light to get there, now will I?

 

[DrParasite]

I hate this state more and more every day.

so why are you still here? plenty of medic openings in Pa, Del, and NY. no one is forcing you to be here.

Stop sending people to the embarassment in wildwood every year in dept vehicles.

yeah, because so many volunteer EMS providers attending the wildwood FIREFIGHTERS convention be honest AJ, how often do you or members of your FIRE DEPARTMENT attend this embarrassment? it's a fire event, while some EMS people attend, it's usually firefighters. and volunteer firefighters. which you are. so who is actually the embarrassment?

Stop putting 50,000 LED flashies on the ambulances.

oh grow up. more and more ambulances are coming with LEDs, their bulbs don't burn up or tax batteries as much as strobes and rotators. and it's not just volunteer ambulances, my per diem paid job just got 3 new ambulances, all with LEDs. it's becoming the new standards.

Obey the State Regs and BILL.

well, I can't disagree with you on this one.

I just want to make sure I have this right. If I wanted to, I could go to NJ and just run an ambulance with who ever I want with what ever training I want so long as they are volunteer?

I never said it was a great system, nor that it made much sense. but yes, as scary as that is, technically you could

 

[BLSBoy]

so why are you still here? plenty of medic openings in Pa, Del, and NY. no one is forcing you to be here.

Experience is second to none, and the pay is top rate.
However, I test with Hillsborough County Fire this Tuesday, and waiting to see whats gonna happen with Orange County Fire.

yeah, because so many volunteer EMS providers attending the wildwood FIREFIGHTERS convention be honest AJ, how often do you or members of your FIRE DEPARTMENT attend this embarrassment? it's a fire event, while some EMS people attend, it's usually firefighters. and volunteer firefighters. which you are. so who is actually the embarrassment?

Actually, I saw a LOT this year. I stayed about a block north of the convention center with friends from Camden County, even though I live in Cape May County.
For the record, I am no longer a vollie FF. I was kicked off for not showing up for 2 months, even though I made it well known I would be working my Medic job, my PT FF job, and my PT marina job, and made every effort to show up when I could.
That said, I saw many members from my PT job (North Wildwood FD) down there, working, training, wandering around the exibits, and cutting up at the bars.
Funny thing, none of them had shirts on from ANY FD/EMS agency when they went out to drink.

oh grow up. more and more ambulances are coming with LEDs, their bulbs don't burn up or tax batteries as much as strobes and rotators. and it's not just volunteer ambulances, my per diem paid job just got 3 new ambulances, all with LEDs. it's becoming the new standards.

Not what I meant, and I'm pretty sure you know it.
I'm talking about the ambulances that are OVERKILL, and that have extraordinarily fast flash patterns that burn my retinas.
Many a squad has refused to turn off the lights because "you call 911, you get lights and sirens". Wait till an MICU crashes because they are blinded by the lights.
To be fair and balanced, many a paid agency are the same. However, I point this out to show that if you can afford to put EXTRA flashies on there, you can afford to put members through EMT.
For the record, I LOVE LEDs. I am on AtlantiCare's EMS Vehicle team, and have assisted in speccing out new vehicles. We go all Whelen LEDs on ours.

well, I can't disagree with you on this one.

See, we still agree on some things!



For those who don't know, Dr. P and I go back a ways, on many different sites, always debating (usually civilally ^_^) the same topics.
We respect each others opinions, (no matter how wrong his are ) and occasionally learn a thing or two.

We aren't random haters.