Kelley Grayson on EMS Forum Behavior

Lifeguards For Life

Forum Deputy Chief
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Judging EMTs who supposedly can't tell if a patient is dead or not is especially easy over an Internet connection. I personally witnessed a patient regain a pulse and breathing a full ten minutes after the code was called, and that's after a doctor, and nurse and a paramedic (me) ran a 10-second asystole strip in three leads, checked pulses, and even checked heart sounds with a Doppler.

Has anyone else heard of anything like this?
 

medic417

The Truth Provider
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Seems his article is right on as the flaming of his statements confirms.
 

JPINFV

Gadfly
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I'm surprised that no one has thrown around the concept of "brotherhood" over there. The only time I've ever seen anyone try to invoke "brotherhood" was when they've put themselves up ____ creek on their own accord and are too afraid to pay the piper for their own stupidity.
 

Veneficus

Forum Chief
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it's kind of hard to argue that medics are educated professionals that cannot take responsibility for their own decisions.
 

JPINFV

Gadfly
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it's kind of hard to argue that medics are educated professionals that cannot take responsibility for their own decisions.

But but but the snow storm is too dangerous for me to go to the patient, but perfectly safe for the patient to walk to us! How can you not understand that I can't provide care if the bottom of my pants are wet from the snow!

Also, far be it for an EMS provider to actually think ahead that posting on the street corner just immediately down the street from a shooting is a terrible idea. They didn't cover the specifics of posting location in EMT school.
 
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Veneficus

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There is a lot not covered in EMT school.

"common sense is an uncommon virtue."

I just love to hear about all the "life or death" decisions and responsibility EMS has but cannot even be trusted or in this case responsible (read capable) of calling for help or walking through the snow.

Having spent several years in the mountains and plains of Central Europe, growing up in NE Ohio (one of only a handful of places in the world to suffer lake effect snow) and traveling to Pittsburg many times, I am not impressed by the "worst snow storm in 50 years" excuse, it is pathetic.
 

medic417

The Truth Provider
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Man Kelley was extremely right you people are judgemental.
 

Veneficus

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JPINFV

Gadfly
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Yes. I evaluate the information I have on a situation based on my education, morals, and experience and come to a judgment on the situation. A judgment that often I discuss online. I fail to see the problem with that.


Or did I just fall into the trap?
 
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AnthonyM83

Forum Asst. Chief
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Has anyone else heard of anything like this?
Absolutely. It hasn't happened to me, but it has happened to an experienced, knowledgeable, responsible, and thorough paramedic I know. He absolutely 100% followed procedure, determined patient dead, and 20 minutes later he had a pulse and posturing. Many witnesses validated the thoroughness. It happens.

And I agree with the author of the article, that newpaper articles do not accurately reflect EXPERIENCING the situation as if one was there.
 

AnthonyM83

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Yes. I evaluate the information I have on a situation based on my education, morals, and experience and come to a judgment on the situation. A judgment that often I discuss online. I fail to see the problem with that.


Or did I just fall into the trap?

JP, the problem is lack of access to accurate and complete information in order to make the judgment.
 

JPINFV

Gadfly
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We never have all of the information of anything, therefore should we never discuss any ethical issues or patient care issues? I don't need all of the information to condemn anyone who knowingly passed off CME courses that they never attended.
 

AnthonyM83

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We never have all of the information of anything, therefore should we never discuss any ethical issues or patient care issues? I don't need all of the information to condemn anyone who knowingly passed off CME courses that they never attended.

The solution is to make comments about the situation in general or put qualifiers such as "if blank was the case, then the medics are blank". Otherwise, no, you really shouldn't condemn others based on incomplete facts.

I only say this because I've made the mistake before. I've also seen what was written in the newspapers compared to later finding out how the situation actually went down. And WOW, it almost always ends up making sense once I see the other side of it.

Just today I was watching a VIDEO (aka with my own eyes) of a cop slam an 87 year old lady for apparently no reason onto concrete. Seemed so violent and out of nowhere. Excessive force. THEN I learned the 87 year old had pulled a knife on the cop. Suddenly, situation changes. Being slammed to the ground doesn't seem like that big of a consequence for creating a life/death situation on another human being. It's all about perspective.
 

medic417

The Truth Provider
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I believe most presume the qualifiers that you mention Anthony. I am with JP many of these news reports lead to some of the best discussions. Yes we, I speak I think for most, understand that we do not have all facts and our discussions are based on the what if this report is right.
 

mcdonl

Forum Captain
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We never have all of the information of anything, therefore should we never discuss any ethical issues or patient care issues? I don't need all of the information to condemn anyone who knowingly passed off CME courses that they never attended.

People just need to realize that the internet is not a great place to be if you have thin skin. If I have an issue regarding one of my patients, or a patient of one of my REAL peers I take it up with my service chief.

If I just want random opinions from people who I could not care less about I go to the internet.
 

mycrofft

Still crazy but elsewhere
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Thin skins.. hear that a lot. (Not a personal reply, but an observation)

It is a pragmatic observation, an admission of surrender, and a bully's mantra, all in one.
1. Yeah, if you are afraid of being dissed, consider writing letters to the editor. But you don't have to take it lying down; or, just don't go to that website. If you get abusive emails, tell your internet provider and/or block their mail.
2. Don't let jerks take over your favorite web site. Complain to the webmasters. DON'T joust with the jerks, that's what they go there for. Think of a website like a neighborhood pub or mom and pop restaurant; if bully's hang out there, business suffers, unless they want to cater to a rough crowd. If you don't like the ambience, don't go there. Complain civily to them if someone's being a jerk. And, to continue the metaphor, no one has the RIGHT to post and comment on a private website, it is private property paid for by the holder. They can always take their trash talk down the line.
3. The first thing bullies want is your silence and compliance. "You need thick skin" can be a warning, or it can be a derisive game.

I keep participating because we have good webmeisters and many good participants.
 

AnthonyM83

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I believe most presume the qualifiers that you mention Anthony. I am with JP many of these news reports lead to some of the best discussions. Yes we, I speak I think for most, understand that we do not have all facts and our discussions are based on the what if this report is right.

When I read the comments on different articles, it often makes me wonder if people are really suspending judgment in their heads. There's some powerful replies people write slamming the people in the articles. Like personal statements about them. And yeah, it's the internet, so ultimately who cares. BUT it's more about the person writing them (not the target)....does the writer really realize that he's going off on his peer because of what some newswriter published.

MyCroft, very good point.
 

rescue99

Forum Deputy Chief
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In light of other discussions going on now, it seems only fitting to share AD's column on EMS1 on EMS'ers comments on the web-- on youtube and fora (forums). Interesting read. Comments?
http://www.ems1.com/columnists/kelly-grayson/articles/846555-Think-before-you-post/

One man's opinion..that's all this amounts to be. He's stating his thoughts, beliefs and ideals about what interests him, in the way it interests him. Unless readers have all of the facts he/she can only form thier own (ideals/opinions) based on what information is made available. In otherwords; this man has done exactly what he's preaching against...IMHO.
 
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