IS there any money in EMS outside of fire?

NorCal

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I'm new to the forum and I have prior experience in public safety (police) and I've noticed there doesn't appear to much money to be made in EMS outside of being employed by a Fire Department.

I have a few questions since I'm not well versed in this area. I do know that I have zero interest in fire, not that there is anything wrong with it, I just don't have any interest in becoming a Fire Fighter.

Are all EMT-P's in a Fire Department crossed trained in Fire Fighting or can you just work as an EMT-P at the FD?

Another question I have is what seems to be the trend in the EMS field in regards to contracting out services to a private vendor? Is this happening more and more or do you see these government positions as stable?
 
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JPINFV

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I've heard medical directors make good money...
 

FLEMTP

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depends on where you work. I made 60k last year working my 24/48 schedule and an occasional overtime shift ( like maybe 1 shift every 2 months) my base salary is 58k, meaning if i worked only my scheduled shifts, i would make 58,000. We also have free insurance (employee only) and 100% employer paid statewide pension (25 year retirement, age 52 min, 3% multiplier)

we are well taken care of. Almost a little TOO well

But we are also now taking some big cuts into our budget, and I fear layoffs are on the horizon because our union "wont allow" any pay cuts.
 
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NorCal

NorCal

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Well that is reassuring. I was cruising around another website (Indeed) and I noticed the national average for EMT-P was somewhere around 35-40K per year and another website listed wages somewhere around $16 hour.

That seemed pretty low considering, from what I've heard, the Paramedic course is 12 months long and is regarded as a very difficult course with a high fail out rate.

I'm currently taking a math course at my community college where yesterday I met the head math instructor who specifically teaches medical math (LVN, RN, Rad Tech, Paramedic). She made the comment that EMS is extremely under paid, and if I wanted to peruse it, I better align myself with a Fire Department. I used to work with her husband at the Sheriff's Department so I trust her opinion.

This is why I wanted to educate myself here by posing the question to those here that have more experience with EMS.
 
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medic417

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You will find few that pay what myself and flemtp get that are not fire related. Most are at or below the numbers you list.
 

46Young

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To answer your question, no, there is no money in EMS outside of fire, save a handful of statistical outliers, as medic 417 said. I personally know of only two exceptions. One is South Carolina. Charleston County specifically. Medics start at around 38k, go up to 46k after six months or so, and top out near 68k. Fire depts can pay firemedics 35k or so, maybe with a top out of 50-60k. In NYC, the hospitals pay near what FDNY pays it's 5 year FF's.

Since we're talking salary, it's important to consider career advancement opportunities. In EMS the opportunities are limited at best. In the fire service, more so in moderate sized to large depts, the sky's the limit. A Capt II at my dept makes exactly double my base as a firemedic with a couple of years in. If there is opportunity for advancement, you can at least promote out of a substandard salary.

The only depts that have single role medics, ones that do only EMS but are employed by the FD, are FDNY, Philly, and Alexandria, VA. All three have a seperate EMS division. The thing is, all new employees hired by Alexandria Fire and EMS are being made to sign a document, as a condition of hire, that stipulates that they must crosstrain as a FF if the dept mandates it at a later time. If they decline to train as a FF at that time, then they will be dismissed. existing single role medics are grandfathered in. From what I've seen, in a FD that has seperate suppression and EMS divisions, the FF's are generally paid more than medics, let alone EMT's, and also receive superior benefits.

I've seen more privates get bumped for either a fire based EMS syetem or a municipal third service EMS, than the opposite. There is much evidence of poor EMS delivery by various privates, definitely enough to convince the local gov't to deny them a contract. Using 911 buses to do IFT's when not assigned to a call, lower hiring standards, staffing issues, a signifcantly lower experience level of provider due to turnover, the threat of leaving if the area becomes unprofitable, lower quality equipment, lower morale of the employee, among other things.
 
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NorCal

NorCal

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To answer your question, no, there is no money in EMS outside of fire, save a handful of statistical outliers, as medic 417 said. I personally know of only two exceptions. One is South Carolina. Charleston County specifically. Medics start at around 38k, go up to 46k after six months or so, and top out near 68k. Fire depts can pay firemedics 35k or so, maybe with a top out of 50-60k. In NYC, the hospitals pay near what FDNY pays it's 5 year FF's.

Since we're talking salary, it's important to consider career advancement opportunities. In EMS the opportunities are limited at best. In the fire service, more so in moderate sized to large depts, the sky's the limit. A Capt II at my dept makes exactly double my base as a firemedic with a couple of years in. If there is opportunity for advancement, you can at least promote out of a substandard salary.

The only depts that have single role medics, ones that do only EMS but are employed by the FD, are FDNY, Philly, and Alexandria, VA. All three have a seperate EMS division. The thing is, all new employees hired by Alexandria Fire and EMS are being made to sign a document, as a condition of hire, that stipulates that they must crosstrain as a FF if the dept mandates it at a later time. If they decline to train as a FF at that time, then they will be dismissed. existing single role medics are grandfathered in. From what I've seen, in a FD that has seperate suppression and EMS divisions, the FF's are generally paid more than medics, let alone EMT's, and also receive superior benefits.

I've seen more privates get bumped for either a fire based EMS syetem or a municipal third service EMS, than the opposite. There is much evidence of poor EMS delivery by various privates, definitely enough to convince the local gov't to deny them a contract. Using 911 buses to do IFT's when not assigned to a call, lower hiring standards, staffing issues, a signifcantly lower experience level of provider due to turnover, the threat of leaving if the area becomes unprofitable, lower quality equipment, lower morale of the employee, among other things.

I appreciate the input. I'm aware that the salary situation is a touchy issue in EMS. I have to admit that when I was in law enforcement, I always assumed that Fire and EMS were paid closely to us. (Making six figures in our area where the cost of living is extremely high)

Well from what it sounds like I have some soul searching too do. Like I stated before, a position in Fire doesn't appeal to me. But I may have to adjust and go the fire route if that is the only way to make a decent living and raise a family. Money isn't everything, but I'd be lying if I didn't acknowledge that its a factor. I understand most people hear would die for a position in a FD, but I was true blue through and through before the economy took its toll forcing massive lay-offs.
 

beandip4all

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if that is the only way to make a decent living and raise a family

it's not. your significant other could also work. two 40k or two 50k salaries = not shabby. i know plenty who do it on less!

:shrug:

at the same time, i emphasize with your conundrum.

cheers
 

EMTinNEPA

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Hospital-based services in Central Pennsylvania pay VERY handsomely for the cost of living. When I was a Paramedic Intern at one of them, the coordinator told me that the previous year he had made a significant amount more than his wife (a PICU nurse at one of the top hospitals in the country).
 

reaper

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Living where you do, you are kind of stuck. Other areas of the country, FD has nothing to do with EMS.

If you look at starting pay rates. Where I am, a medic makes more the LEO and twice as much as a FF.

You have to look at the area. fire/medics might make good money in one place, but the cost of living may be double. So, it really is not any more money.

EMS has never been about making huge money, it is about wanting to do the job. Yes, you can make a good living and have a stable career. More areas are cutting back FD and LEO jobs, but EMS is staying stable or growing. You just have to decide what is best for you.
 

ohnoyoudidnt

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Hospital-based services in Central Pennsylvania pay VERY handsomely for the cost of living. When I was a Paramedic Intern at one of them, the coordinator told me that the previous year he had made a significant amount more than his wife (a PICU nurse at one of the top hospitals in the country).

The jobs are out there, you just have to look hard for them. New Castle County, DE, starts at 40K a year and tops at 61k after 6 years not including OT or ALS incentives.

Then there is my current gig, Rural Uh-oh where you have to work 48 hours normally, plus another 12-24 in OT and another full time job just to pay your bills. Top pay at RMA without OT is 44k if your lucky enough to ever get to the top pay. The average is somewhere around 33-35K, and if your an basic you wont break 23k unless you pick up 20-30 hours of OT a week.
 

46Young

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I appreciate the input. I'm aware that the salary situation is a touchy issue in EMS. I have to admit that when I was in law enforcement, I always assumed that Fire and EMS were paid closely to us. (Making six figures in our area where the cost of living is extremely high)

Well from what it sounds like I have some soul searching too do. Like I stated before, a position in Fire doesn't appeal to me. But I may have to adjust and go the fire route if that is the only way to make a decent living and raise a family. Money isn't everything, but I'd be lying if I didn't acknowledge that its a factor. I understand most people hear would die for a position in a FD, but I was true blue through and through before the economy took its toll forcing massive lay-offs.

If you're under 35, can't you apply for the U.S. Park Police? They are very well taken care of. What about state police in various regions? Some places take lateral transfers.

As far as fire, there are depts that train you for fire, but you'll ride the ambulance most of the time. Also, there are firemedicas that would rather ride the engine all the time, so they would be happy to swap your engine tours with their ambulance tours. Something to think about. Also, unless you're in an urban area, structure fires are relatively infrequent. You'll be doing mostly alarm bells, car fires, MVA's, gas leaks, outside fires, etc.
 

46Young

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it's not. your significant other could also work. two 40k or two 50k salaries = not shabby. i know plenty who do it on less!

:shrug:

at the same time, i emphasize with your conundrum.

cheers

That's good in theory, but who's raising your kids? The cost of child care can largely negate the additional salary. It's not worth it for the second parent to work FT, with shuffling the kids around, for maybe $10/hr or so after child care costs.
 

46Young

Level 25 EMS Wizard
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Living where you do, you are kind of stuck. Other areas of the country, FD has nothing to do with EMS.

If you look at starting pay rates. Where I am, a medic makes more the LEO and twice as much as a FF.

You have to look at the area. fire/medics might make good money in one place, but the cost of living may be double. So, it really is not any more money.

EMS has never been about making huge money, it is about wanting to do the job. Yes, you can make a good living and have a stable career. More areas are cutting back FD and LEO jobs, but EMS is staying stable or growing. You just have to decide what is best for you.

Reaper's not kidding. When I worked in Charleston County, FD's were hiring for around 22-25k/yr on a 24/48 schedule. Police were paid crap as well.

http://www.charlestoncity.info/dept/content.aspx?nid=817&cid=9930

You need a two year degree just to apply, and if you have a six year degree you're still maybe equal with a medic crew chief that got their cert in a six month mill! You would have to be a sucker to get a Master's and then work for 45k or whatever.
 

46Young

Level 25 EMS Wizard
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The jobs are out there, you just have to look hard for them. New Castle County, DE, starts at 40K a year and tops at 61k after 6 years not including OT or ALS incentives.

Then there is my current gig, Rural Uh-oh where you have to work 48 hours normally, plus another 12-24 in OT and another full time job just to pay your bills. Top pay at RMA without OT is 44k if your lucky enough to ever get to the top pay. The average is somewhere around 33-35K, and if your an basic you wont break 23k unless you pick up 20-30 hours of OT a week.

That's the problem with EMS. Unless you live somewhere where homes go for under 150k, a salary of 0k with a top out of only 60k isn't going to cut it. At 40k, you're bringing home maybe 2,300-2,400 a month if no deduction for a pension. $3,300-3,500/onth at 60k, which takes six years to get to.

That salary range only works if there's liberal OT. If OT is scarce, you'll need to get a side job that probably pays equal to or less than your hourly rate.

I love when people say that they're making good money at their EMS job. They make 10 or 12 bucks an hour, but their regular FT schedule is 72 hours/wk, and they pick up a couple of shifts here and there. If your job is more enjoyable than your personal life, then I guess it could work out.

It irritates me when people question why members of my dept are paid on par with those posessing a 4-6 year degree. It's because we work 56 hours a week, not 40 like everyone else.

You can live well on an EMS salary, if you do OT and per diem work. The problem is, you're cost of living, such as rent/mortgage, car payments, etc. will be in line with your total income, not just your base. This is the trap that many in EMS fall in to. They can't leave the field since they're dependent on these several income streams. And what happens if you get injured? No OT or PT work for you, and less than 100% of base salary if you don't properly insure yourself.

Please don't read me as hostile. I just want to get people thinking on financial matters. I wish I knew these things when I was starting out in EMS.
 

abckidsmom

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That's good in theory, but who's raising your kids? The cost of child care can largely negate the additional salary. It's not worth it for the second parent to work FT, with shuffling the kids around, for maybe $10/hr or so after child care costs.

Thanks for saying this. I could out-earn my husband in nursing or EMS education, but the time and money we save with me being home with the kids and homeschooling is just impossibly priceless.
 

abckidsmom

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That's the problem with EMS. Unless you live somewhere where homes go for under 150k, a salary of 0k with a top out of only 60k isn't going to cut it. At 40k, you're bringing home maybe 2,300-2,400 a month if no deduction for a pension. $3,300-3,500/onth at 60k, which takes six years to get to.

That salary range only works if there's liberal OT. If OT is scarce, you'll need to get a side job that probably pays equal to or less than your hourly rate.

I love when people say that they're making good money at their EMS job. They make 10 or 12 bucks an hour, but their regular FT schedule is 72 hours/wk, and they pick up a couple of shifts here and there. If your job is more enjoyable than your personal life, then I guess it could work out.

It irritates me when people question why members of my dept are paid on par with those posessing a 4-6 year degree. It's because we work 56 hours a week, not 40 like everyone else.

You can live well on an EMS salary, if you do OT and per diem work. The problem is, you're cost of living, such as rent/mortgage, car payments, etc. will be in line with your total income, not just your base. This is the trap that many in EMS fall in to. They can't leave the field since they're dependent on these several income streams. And what happens if you get injured? No OT or PT work for you, and less than 100% of base salary if you don't properly insure yourself.

Please don't read me as hostile. I just want to get people thinking on financial matters. I wish I knew these things when I was starting out in EMS.

Long commute. With a 24 hour shift, the nearly 2 hr commute is worth it to acheive a central VA living on a NOVA salary. So, with the long commute and the 56 hour work week, I guess there's the built in OT, but the 4-days are nice.

I saw a car recently with union tags, that said something like LV4MY4DAY (I know that's too many letters, but I can't remember how it went exactly).
 
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NorCal

NorCal

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Most of my education is LEO based. I have an AS Degree in Behavioral Science and I am currently two semesters away from completing my BS Degree in Emergency Services Management. (Got to love the GI Bill)

Currently I'm taking the First Responder course just for fun, and too see if a position in EMS really interests me. Since I left LE, I picked up a position where I manage a Security Department at the regional hospital. So I spend a good amount of time in the Emergency Department as we have the contract with the county mental health and the county jail.

A friend of mine left the hospital to work as an EMT-B with AMR on a 24 hr rig. She was making around 50K as an admissions clerk in the ER, and now she makes around 40K as an EMT-B but she seems much happier with the new job.

I was hoping that my degree's might afford me a better position/ standing with an EMS outfit. I fully understand that I would have to start out as an EMT-B and put my time in; I'm just putting the feelers out there in order to reap the reward from the experience here on this forum.
 

aodem

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I feel your pain. I'm also a former LEO from the Portland Or. area. I unfortunately let my medic certifications lapse while going through the academy and FTO phases. ( what do I need to keep up my medic for...this job is forever right?) Ah, hindsight. I start the EMT-P program at the end of this month. Again. The starting salaries between new officers and new medics, at least in Oregon, are fairly comparable but officers advance much quicker. Unless you are willing to relocate, you may have to get into the mindset of working 2 jobs or working for a fire service. BTW, thats a good looking shepard in your avatar. Were you a K9 officer? If so, you should try to latteral up to the NW.
 
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NorCal

NorCal

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I feel your pain. I'm also a former LEO from the Portland Or. area. I unfortunately let my medic certifications lapse while going through the academy and FTO phases. ( what do I need to keep up my medic for...this job is forever right?) Ah, hindsight. I start the EMT-P program at the end of this month. Again. The starting salaries between new officers and new medics, at least in Oregon, are fairly comparable but officers advance much quicker. Unless you are willing to relocate, you may have to get into the mindset of working 2 jobs or working for a fire service. BTW, thats a good looking shepard in your avatar. Were you a K9 officer? If so, you should try to latteral up to the NW.

I'm starting to realize as an LEO I was extremely spoiled when it comes to pay and benefits. Everything else seems to come up short in comparison. I may have to go the fire route if I want something comparable. And no, I wasn't K-9 (I Wish) I was just a beat cop with no specialties other than cross trained in narcotics (Although I never worked for the Narc Unit) I just had the training. I breed working line German Shepherds in my spare time. The one in my Avatar is my male (East German Red Sable).
 
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