Doing Too Much?

RocketMedic

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So, I recently had a patient suffering from severe cardiogenic shock as a result of a massive left-sided infarct. Respiratory collapse and failure on arrival, hypotensive, etc. Diagnosis was pretty quick, but here's where I have second thoughts.

In San Antonio or CA or EMSA or a lot of other "regressive" areas without RSI, I'd have scooped and ran to the closest appropriate facility, perhaps ten minutes away. This patient could have been manually ventilated with a BVM + adjunct, albeit with developing gastric distension and a less-than-optimal airway/ventilation scenario. A King or iGel would have likely been successful as well. Initial airway-management techniques were of moderate effectiveness but did not improve perfusion or oxygenation (SpO2 persistently <90% despite moderately-good ventilation with 100% oxygen, EtCO2 <20, and the Brady/hypo Spiral of Doom)

Instead of this, though, we slowed down, obtained a more-comprehensive set of vitals (confirming our initial diagnosis), established vascular access and intubated the patient with an RSI procedure, which allowed us to more-properly stabilize the airway and ventilate the patient more appropriately. Yes, it was medically indicated and necessary, but I do question the mentality behind it- were we RSIing because we could or because it was really in the patient's best interest? On the one hand, respiratory failure with persistent hypoxia is a death sentence left untreated, but correcting those problems doesn't clear blocked arteries or repair infarcts. Pressors, oxygenation and pacing help numbers, but this patient probably needed a cath lab, and I suspect we slowed that down (although on the flipside, the patient was probably too unstable to go to the cath lab without ED stabilization, which was essentially what we were doing).

I think that the biggest "change" in our tempo came with the arrival of our supervisor, but I do think that our agency expectations played a part, in that we pride ourselves on doing as much as we can for our patients (in contrast to other agencies that are transport-first). The supervisor and expectations aren't wrong, but I am unsure if they are were the most correct for our patient's situation. Sure, we went deep into the toolkit and got "better" numbers, but it was also time-consuming, and minutes matter. Did we fall into the protocol trap? Overall, our time difference was approximately 20 minutes, and in all honesty, could have been cut down with some workflow improvements and better time management on our part as EMS.

The patient did not survive the event, going into arrest approximately 30 minutes after arrival at hospital (1 hour after initial call), ROSC x3 but then a refractory v-fib arrest that was eventually terminated. Comorbidities and situation made survival unlikely, but I do feel that we could have done better.
 

SpecialK

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I presume he had pulmonary oedema with his cardiogenic shock?

Depends on how far the cath lab is vs. how far away an RSI Officer is. If he can be oxygenated satisfactorily - an LMA probably would have done the trick then I'd just run on down to the cath lab with a very early RT call so ED are waiting for him on arrival. To call for RSI, have them drive to you, do RSI then transport him would probably take an extra half an hour to 40 minutes. Unless they were literally around the corner, and even if they were, if I could just put in an LMA or something and run on down to hospital then I'll do that. As long as he can be oxygenated satisfactorily then it's not important how; it won't be clinically significant to the outcome; what will be is getting him to a cath lab.

Could have also tried pacing or an adrenaline infusion? Not sure either would have done much good.

Sounds like this guy was really bloody crook regardless and probably wouldn't have made it. I've seen enough STEMI but never a patient with cardiogenic shock, and I don't look forward to the day I do as the mortality rate is very high.
 

Tigger

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I don't think it is fair to call systems regressive that do not RSI but have appropriate facilities nearby. There is little evidence for prehospital RSI, so I don't subscribe to RSI=progressive. There is no shame in deferring procedures to the hospital if the patient can be satisfactorily managed until the ED. If the goal is better numbers (and I am not sure it is), a time consuming procedure is probably not in this patient's best interest.
 

STXmedic

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Hey, don't throw SA under your blanket- I've got RSI ;)

Those are hard to arm-chair. Sure, she needed reperfusion therapy. But if the patient's numbers were bad enough that you thought the aggressive treatments were necessary, would they have lasted long enough to get to the cath lab anyway?

You found that y'all could've improved your flow and efficiency. Take that away from your call, improve that, and move on.
 

CWATT

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What I think we have here is a cost-benefit scenario. And I do get what you mean though about 'just because you can'. I'm in the camp of 'I'd rather be able to and know when to not over not being able to at all'. That's where good training, ongoing education, call reviews, and protocols come in. Also, I was with a service that had 2.5hr ground-transport times. RSI was good to have. They also have reprofusion protocols as well.
 

VentMonkey

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I don't think it is fair to call systems regressive that do not RSI but have appropriate facilities nearby. There is little evidence for prehospital RSI, so I don't subscribe to RSI=progressive.
I agree with this statement. RSI has been around for years, and is hardly progressive, or cutting-edge. Overall, there is a time and place for everything. If you arrive on scene to find a patient in immediate need of interventions that are deemed warranted in your specific protocols within reason, then enter them, I would.

I don't think we should over-analyze every call, patient, or their outcome. Some people will just die regardless of the providers treatments, or lack there of; even at the ED. We can argue, or debate, all day until the cow's come home and spin it so that whatever we did, or didn't do was deemed "justifiable". By who? Well, that's something we as providers need to be willing to accept, consequence, or not.

As I like to say, I think knowing when not to do something is just as important, if not more so than knowing when to do something. It takes a bit more critical thinking and experience to develop this sense of intuition, though. This too will vary from provider to provider.
 

Handsome Robb

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They're going to get RSId before they go to the cath lab anyways. I'd have probably done the same thing. Sure you could use an SGA but the hospital is going to exchange it for an ETT anyways.

Just my .02


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MonkeyArrow

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They're going to get RSId before they go to the cath lab anyways. I'd have probably done the same thing. Sure you could use an SGA but the hospital is going to exchange it for an ETT anyways.

Just my .02


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IMO that is a faulty justification. Sure, he probably would have gotten a tube before the went to the CCL. But, equating the services that two providers in the back of an ambulance can provide with the treatment that a ED can provide is insane. This isn't a knock against paramedics necessarily, the fact of the matter is that the hospital is better equipped to manage this patient, and the physicians/RTs have more training than us. Even if the time spent doing the intubation is the same, everything surrounding it isn't, and the patient will be better managed in a ED setting.
 

Carlos Danger

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Rocket, it sounds to me like you did a fine job. With a massive left sided infarct causing respiratory failure, this guy's chances were slim no matter what you did. I would not beat yourself up at all.

That said, I think you ask an excellent question. "Do we sometimes do too much"? My response to that question would be: Yes. Very often, I think.

Lots of individual paramedics and lots of "progressive" agencies pride themselves on their "aggressive" care and "advanced" protocols. And many are quick to dismiss (if not outright offended by) any questioning of the necessity or benefit of a clinically aggressive philosophy towards patient care. There are lots of reasons why we are drawn to this idea of being "clinically aggressive". Part of the problem is that most of us barely get enough experience with these interventions to really be comfortable doing them, never mind being comfortable using an alternative approach which we practice even less, and are taught is not as "definitive". There isn't a lot of emphasis on this nuance in our training, so we end up generally not very good at identifying situations where a given intervention might not be the best idea. The end result is that if we can justify an intervention, we're going to do it. "But an ETT is the most secure airway." "But what if they vomit?" "But they are just going to do it as soon as we get to the hospital."

Underlying all that is this vague notion that if you aren't clinically aggressive, you aren't a strong paramedic.

Again, none of this is being critical of the scenario you posted. Like I said, it sounds like you did a good job.

I think this is why having a good set of truly evidence-based guidelines is important. The clinical research certainly doesn't answer every question adequately, but I think in most cases it gives us pretty solid advice, if we would just listen to it.
 
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captaindepth

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I don't think it is fair to call systems regressive that do not RSI but have appropriate facilities nearby. There is little evidence for prehospital RSI, so I don't subscribe to RSI=progressive. There is no shame in deferring procedures to the hospital if the patient can be satisfactorily managed until the ED. If the goal is better numbers (and I am not sure it is), a time consuming procedure is probably not in this patient's best interest.

I think this statement is spot on! I am a true believer in BLS before ALS and if I can *appropriately* manage an airway with less invasive means than thats my choice most of the time. I am, however, in a large urban environment and we transport to 12 different hospitals so it's rare to have a transport more than 10-15 minutes. My system still teaches and uses nasal intubations quite frequently and we have a high success rate (plus it can be done during transport with the assistance of a BLS fireman in the back with you). We are definitely more of a scoop and go type of place but I still think we can have the pt prepped and ready for the ED in a timely manor without diminishing the level of care. With that small percentage of truly "critical" patients time does matter and Id rather get them to definitive care sooner rather than later. Just my 2 cents.
 
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RocketMedic

RocketMedic

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I think this statement is spot on! I am a true believer in BLS before ALS and if I can *appropriately* manage an airway with less invasive means than thats my choice most of the time. I am, however, in a large urban environment and we transport to 12 different hospitals so it's rare to have a transport more than 10-15 minutes. My system still teaches and uses nasal intubations quite frequently and we have a high success rate (plus it can be done during transport with the assistance of a BLS fireman in the back with you). We are definitely more of a scoop and go type of place but I still think we can have the pt prepped and ready for the ED in a timely manor without diminishing the level of care. With that small percentage of truly "critical" patients time does matter and Id rather get them to definitive sooner rather than later. Just my 2 cents.

I'm all for ALS diagnosis, but I tend to agree....timely treatment and transport is something that i think that we forget about at times.
 

phideux

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I don't think it is fair to call systems regressive that do not RSI but have appropriate facilities nearby. There is little evidence for prehospital RSI, so I don't subscribe to RSI=progressive. There is no shame in deferring procedures to the hospital if the patient can be satisfactorily managed until the ED. If the goal is better numbers (and I am not sure it is), a time consuming procedure is probably not in this patient's best interest.

RSI is not a time consuming procedure, I can draw up and push the meds in a minute or less, after that the actual intubation time is patient/problem dependent, but it usually doesn't take more than a half a minute to drop a tube.
I'm in the better to have it and not need it camp. The main skill comes in the critical thinking department to know when you need it.
If the airway is not your first priority, by all means go the old BLS before ALS route, but if you really need to RSI to protect an airway, but can't because the guy in the fly car that is 15 minutes away is your closest RSI certified guy, and the hospital is 15 minutes in the other direction, it really sucks.
 

Tigger

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RSI is not a time consuming procedure, I can draw up and push the meds in a minute or less, after that the actual intubation time is patient/problem dependent, but it usually doesn't take more than a half a minute to drop a tube.
I'm in the better to have it and not need it camp. The main skill comes in the critical thinking department to know when you need it.
If the airway is not your first priority, by all means go the old BLS before ALS route, but if you really need to RSI to protect an airway, but can't because the guy in the fly car that is 15 minutes away is your closest RSI certified guy, and the hospital is 15 minutes in the other direction, it really sucks.
No RSI that I have ever been a part of has gone that quickly and I am not sure you can effectively pre oxygenate the patient without some time. We also wait a minute between etomidate and succs to ensure that we are actually sedating the patient. It should take a bit of time to get the proper airway equipment set up too. You might be able to intubate someone in a minute, but are you prepared if you can't? Maybe you are, maybe you aren't, but it takes me and everyone I work with longer than a minute to be sure of that.

RSI should not be a crash procedure.
 

VentMonkey

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RSI should not be a crash procedure.
This^^^. The very first person to teach me anything about critical care preached this, all others have echoed it.

The word "rapid" isn't to be taken as the length it takes to rush through the procedure; that should be clarified so that those unfamiliar with the procedure itself understand that.

You are electing to take someone's airway away, give them the respect to do it right.
 

E tank

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Totally, I think the figure is minimum 3 minutes for people who are starting off with an adequate respiratory status...so it's gotta be longer or better if inadequate, no?

That, absolutely, in addition to the issue of impaired cardiac function. Full distribution and effect of muscle relaxant and hypnotic can take several minutes in a failing heart. Seen plenty of people go to sleep right after direct laryngoscopy.
 
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