Ambulance Crew Blasted For Staging at a Shooting

46Young

Level 25 EMS Wizard
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46Young

Level 25 EMS Wizard
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From the article on statter911:

Excerpts from story by WLBT-TV:

Jackson (MS) city councilman Kenneth Stokes thinks the city needs to change ambulance companies or go into the ambulance business.

Stokes says the victim, 25- year-old Lee Joseph Martin, had to wait 23 minutes for help because police had not secured the shooting scene. He held a news conference at the apartment complex.

“You have got to take the risk. You can’t let citizens die. Because if you are wounded, you say I’m not safe. Now if you can’t assume the risk then give it to the person who can assume the risk,” said Stokes.

AMR spokesman Jim Pollard said it is national policy that ambulances do not go into shooting scenes until they are sure the scene is secure and that is to protect emergency personnel.

Pollard says he has studied the times and found they got the call at 10:15:04, were on scene at 10:22:24, and had patient contact at 10:22:29 or seven minutes twenty-five seconds after getting the call.
 

medicRob

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;)
http://statter911.com/2010/09/22/mississippi-politician-blasts-ambulance-service-for-staging-at-shooting-scene-waiting-for-cops-says-you-have-got-to-take-the-risk/

A Missisippi politicician from Jackson blasts an AMR ambulance crew for staging at a shooting rather than rushing in. I'm at a loss for words.
Maybe he needs to take a look at the police force that was suppose to be securing the scene. This politician is an idiot plain and simple. This isn't "Trauma", we don't put our lives at risk by blatantly disregarding everything we have been taught about scene safety just so we can look like "Heroes". People who play "Hero" end up dead. Dead EMT's help no one.

I sent this individual the following email:

"Stokes,

You are an idiot. I am a Paramedic in the state of TN as well as a critical care RN and your criticism of AMR made you look like a fool and made your town look like a bunch of uneducated rednecks on a national level.

From the first day of EMT basic school we are taught, "Scene Safety". A dead EMT helps no one. I don't care if a shooting victim is laying out in the middle of the road bleeding to death, if an officer does not tell us the scene is safe, YOU DO NOT GO IN.

Answer me this, what would've happened if the EMT's were to go in on that scene and one ended up shot? Who does he help? He just becomes another liability on the scene and is one more person the police have to work to get to safety and get treated.

You must be wondering why I didn't start this message with, "The honorable Stokes", the answer is because I think you are an idiot. There is nothing honorable about an individual who can place blame on an ambulance service for doing what they were trained to do. It is the Police force that you need to be taking a look at and their delayed response time for whatever reason.

Do you think the DOT and the state board of EMS is going to start telling EMT's to disregard scene safety because it increases times to the patient? In the end if you are the paramedic and you are laying on the ground shot and dead, how the hell is this going to increase time to treatment? Perhaps it is time for the city to look into replacing you and your incompetence as opposed to replacing AMR.

Think again, Mr. Stokes.

Regards,

Robert F, NREMT-P AAS, RN BSN CCRN"


Here is Mr. Stoke's contact information on the city's website if you would like to do the same.

Mailing Address:

Post Office Box 17
219 South President Street
Jackson, Mississippi 39205-0017

Telephone: (601) 960-1090
FAX: (601) 960-1032


email: kstokes@city.jackson.ms.us

from:
http://www.city.jackson.ms.us/government/ward3
 
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JPINFV

Gadfly
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Unless the crew is stupid and posted within line of sight of the scene, nope... sorry. Stage until the police clear the crew in.
 

medic417

The Truth Provider
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Did you read the comments to the article? Some of those people make us look very unprofessional. They are hurting more than helping. And if carol posts here make sure you fix spell check.
 

jjesusfreak01

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If a person is bleeding out and the police have yet to secure the scene, they can feel free to carry the person out to me or even drive them to me. I'll even let them have the stretcher if they want it. Any exceptions to this rule are by my prerogative. If its a bleeding cop that wanders away from the dangerous part of the scene I might feel so inclined to put myself at a slight risk, but thats my choice, and I might get fired for it (probably not for PR reasons).

EMS personnel sign up with a calculated level of risk in mind. We agree to risk exposure to pathogens and disorderly (even violent) patients, while the police agree to risk their lives and go up against violence and go into unsafe scenes. This is their job, not ours. We thank them for what they do, but until an EMT and a LEO are the same thing, we don't secure scenes.
 

abckidsmom

Dances with Patients
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We have an idiot politician as well. I wish that there was a way to take away the public speaking priveleges of idiots.
 

LonghornMedic

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Amazing that an elected official would make such a reckless, knee jerk comment. Reminds of the whole Obama-Cambridge Police "acted stupidly" comment. Good luck to the councilman in finding another ambulance company that doesn't stage on shooting calls.
 

DrParasite

The fire extinguisher is not just for show
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This guy isn't stupid; he's ignorant to reality. His perception is that EMS should run in, save the day, and they can always save guys in cardiac arrest. We all know that reality is different.

it is no different than the hostage situation in Ct where two people died because the cops didn't enter the house, they secured the perimeter and waited for the hostage team, and are now being criticized by the ignorant for not doing anything for 30 minutes.

It's also no different than the idiot mayor of NYC blasting the two dispatchers who allegedly didn't do anything to help the dying asthma patient at the coffee shop. Not that he wasn't right in what he said, but rather to publicly castigate them before any investigation confirmed their allegations was a poor action by a public official.

"“You have got to take the risk. You can’t let citizens die. Because if you are wounded, you say I’m not safe. Now if you can’t assume the risk then give it to the person who can assume the risk,” said Stokes." The police assume that risk, not EMS. Now I won't say there are no EMS agencies that might scoop and run before PD get there, but if the shooter decides to pick off the EMTs, then what? PD can shoot back, has tactical training, and kevlar vests. They assume the risk.

Very few ambulance companies and EMT will assume the risk of entering an unsafe scene, despite what this councilman wants. But when your perception of EMS is based on TRAUMA and EMERGENCY!!! what do you expect?
 

EMS49393

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He can take the EMT class and run into that scene himself because I'll be d***ed, I'm not going to. Yet another reason for me to hate politicians and politics.
 

LucidResq

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Email entitled EMS Professionals are citizens too.

Mr. Stokes,

I wonder if you would still stand by your recent comments that paramedics and EMTs "have got to take that risk," and "can't let citizens die," if faced with the families of the following EMS workers who were murdered while performing care on scenes such as the one you question. Yes, EMS is an inherently dangerous job, but it seems you do not value EMTs if you think they should routinely put themselves in the line of fire when they are NOT armed like police officers and NOT trained like police officers.

I also wonder how you figure that a dead EMT will do a wounded patient any good. In fact, common sense says that staying alive long enough to treat a patient is actually the best way to not "let citizens die," rather than bringing a box of bandaids to a gunfight. Common sense also says that risking the death of one wounded citizen is better than risking the death of the people sent to help them and consequently the wounded patient as well, but apparently common sense is something you are lacking.

So please, feel free to share your beliefs with the families of the following murdered EMTs and paramedics. You do still hold that their deaths are acceptable losses in exchange for the victims they were trying to save, correct? I would also like to point out that the reason there aren't many more on this list is due to the fact that every single EMS service in the country has the same policy as AMR. However, you are telling the world that these policies should be erased, and the list of dead EMTs, their widows/widowers, and fatherless/motherless children should be much longer.

Lt. Brenda D. Cowan, EMT, of Lexington Div Fire & Emergency Services; Lexington, KY - shot and killed on scene while tending to a shooting victim on February 13, 2004.

Steve Patrick Lovato, EMT, of AMR; Roswell, NM - shot and killed by a suicidal man they were trying to help, who had lit his girlfriend's house on fire and was suffering from burns on March 16, 2002. The man also murdered a Fire Chief and a toddler.

Mark B. Davis, EMT, of Cape Vincent Volunteer Fire Dept.; Cape Vincent, NY - shot and killed by an agitated man possibly having a heart attack, who became violent while the EMTs were trying to help him on January 30, 2009.

Anthony N. Pirraglia, Paramedic/RN, of Meducare; Charleston, SC - shot and killed by a man he was trying to help after he witnessed him crash his car on January 19, 2002. Another RN with Pirraglia was also shot and wounded.

Mr. Stokes, AMR does not owe anyone an apology for keeping their employees safe and alive. YOU owe AMR, the entire global EMS community, and the families of the above slain EMTs an apology. The next time you are tempted to compulsively point the finger at lifesaving professionals in an industry you know nothing about, stop and think before you speak, and maybe do some research.
 

TransportJockey

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firetender

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How shall we present ourselves?

;)I sent this individual the following email:

"Stokes,

You are an idiot. I am a Paramedic in the state of TN...
Rob, I appreciate your fervor, but any reasonable person would toss your bile before you even got to embarrassing your profession AND State!

You're working on the assumption that people know what EMS is and does. It's not true. To most, we are essentially street-sweepers that remove human debris from the footpaths so regular citizens don't have to step over others' pain!

Someone in EMS in this guy's area, didn't take the time to educate him, or such education was not available to the general public. This is a lesson in what we all need to do: Make a pre-emptive strike!

If you haven't already, make sure your local Politicos know what you do. Get a Reporter on your side. Then, when people like Stokes do stuff like that, if you say anything, you write a letter like this...

Mr. Stokes,

I wonder if you would still stand by your recent comments that paramedics and EMTs "have got to take that risk," and "can't let citizens die," if faced with the families of the following EMS workers who were murdered while performing care on scenes such as the one you question. Yes, EMS is an inherently dangerous job, but it seems you do not value EMTs if you think they should routinely put themselves in the line of fire when they are NOT armed like police officers and NOT trained like police officers.
And even this letter states he needs to educate himself. You can't count on that being an area of his interest. This writer, as well, has to figure out who in the community needs to know what about EMS and educate them, BEFORE a medic gets slammed for protecting his/her life.

Tactics, Robbie, it's your tactics that leave a bit to be desired!

A letter to Mr. Stokes gets in the papers, therefore more mileage, therefore has more effect. One like yours may weasel its way to his eye, but will get no further. If influence is what you were seeking, you shot yourself in the foot.

You're acting as if respect is a given in this profession. It's not, it's something continually earned and since we're already behind when it comes to getting it, letters like yours won't help.

This is not meant personally as much as a great opportunity to compare and contrast styles of communication seeking to bring change. In reality, one response served to educate, the other, to deliver a few punches, but both underscore our responsibility to educate our communities on an ongoing basis. You never know when you'll need them to cover your back!.
 

medicRob

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Rob, I appreciate your fervor, but any reasonable person would toss your bile before you even got to embarrassing your profession AND State!

You're working on the assumption that people know what EMS is and does. It's not true. To most, we are essentially street-sweepers that remove human debris from the footpaths so regular citizens don't have to step over others' pain!

Someone in EMS in this guy's area, didn't take the time to educate him, or such education was not available to the general public. This is a lesson in what we all need to do: Make a pre-emptive strike!

If you haven't already, make sure your local Politicos know what you do. Get a Reporter on your side. Then, when people like Stokes do stuff like that, if you say anything, you write a letter like this...



And even this letter states he needs to educate himself. You can't count on that being an area of his interest. This writer, as well, has to figure out who in the community needs to know what about EMS and educate them, BEFORE a medic gets slammed for protecting his/her life.

Tactics, Robbie, it's your tactics that leave a bit to be desired!

A letter to Mr. Stokes gets in the papers, therefore more mileage, therefore has more effect. One like yours may weasel its way to his eye, but will get no further. If influence is what you were seeking, you shot yourself in the foot.

You're acting as if respect is a given in this profession. It's not, it's something continually earned and since we're already behind when it comes to getting it, letters like yours won't help.

This is not meant personally as much as a great opportunity to compare and contrast styles of communication seeking to bring change. In reality, one response served to educate, the other, to deliver a few punches, but both underscore our responsibility to educate our communities on an ongoing basis. You never know when you'll need them to cover your back!.
Honestly, the email was more about me venting my anger than anything. I never expected him to read it in the first place. I assume that after all the news coverage, his inbox is full anyways. It just made me feel better to know
that I said something about it.
 

Linuss

Forum Chief
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I'm at an utter loss for words.



There's a reason why Emil Mătăsăreanu was allowed to die back in the North Hollywood shootout... and why the 'charges' were eventually dropped and it was deemed a 'mistrial'. You CANNOT demand others to put their life on the line for you. Ever. It's our decision.

Infact, even police are not required to put themselves in harms way.



But alas, Jackson really isn't known for their educational standards...
 
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589661

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BSI Scene Safety?

Day one in class if we walked into the classroom without saying BSI and Scene Safety we were "shot" and lost 10 points for the day. The scene was obviously not safe and guess who is number one in that case. THE EMT!!!!!!!!!
This is unacceptable to wait 7 and a half minutes to make sure that no other lifes are taken. Are you kidding me news reporter. You tell me how to do my job when you can get the weather right. Whats next you gonna tell the firefighters that they took too long to extinguish a fire? Are you going to tell the police that their responce to your call because your neighbors are having a party that is clearly legal and is bothering no one. WHATS NEXT!!!!!!
 

LucidResq

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And even this letter states he needs to educate himself. You can't count on that being an area of his interest. This writer, as well, has to figure out who in the community needs to know what about EMS and educate them, BEFORE a medic gets slammed for protecting his/her life.
I stand by it. Yes, if he is going to speak from a government position and disparage the company and its employees, he should educate himself before speaking. There is nothing wrong with expecting a person speaking from a position of power to learn about how their jurisdiction operates a little bit and watching what they say BEFORE they speak. It's his job, actually.
 

LucidResq

Forum Deputy Chief
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I simply do not have the time or resources to hunt down every halfwit city council member or politician in my area and run through our protocols with them and then hold a Q&A session with them to ensure there are no misunderstandings about what we will and won't do. He made his knee-jerk reaction statements without doing his homework, therefore he deserves all the backlash he's getting. And again, he's a city council member, his job is to serve the city which usually involves knowing quite a bit about. He's not just Joe-Shmoe who a) has no obligation to know such things and b) is not speaking from a position of power.
 
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