What would you do?

[slallak]

I was shopping on day when I came across and employee that was leaning on the shelve with her head down (look like she was crying). So I walked to the other end of the isle to look at something when a co-worker sat her in a chair. I look at her. She was white as a ghost and majorly sweating. I walked over to her and asked her if she was ok. "She stated she was fine." I said are you sure. At that point she started to sieze. I got her to the ground. When so woke up I asked her if she had a siezure disorder and she told me she has never had on. I have no equipment on me. So I ask her a bunch of questions and gather she has no medical history. She says that she has back pain in between her shoulders that she has had for several months. She said her daughter would take her to ER. We got her into the wheel chair and she started throwing up. Pulse is weak and thready. Oh and by the the store we were in has a policy that a manager has to call 911 and at that time I didn't know that. How would you handle this and what do you think is wrong.

 

[Mercy4Angels]

to hell with the manager and their policies just yell out for someone to call 911. Personally someones health comes b4 any dumb store policy. now did you introduce yourself as an EMT or just a concerned bystander ? there in lies the difference. First i would have gotten a rig on the way and nicely told them that going to the hospital without an ambulance and EMTs (possibly medics) was ill advised due to her condition. perform rapid assesment for medical patient assess your ABCs if all is ok start a SAMPLE and focused reassessment OPQRST get a baseline vitals B4 the emts or medics arrive for trending.

 

[Ridryder911]

First, I would had called 911... I would inform them I would gladly have her attorneys call them for review of their policy and delay of care, which they caused. I am sure they would be glad to change.

Second, there are too many possibilities of cause of seizures to determine from poor history and physical examination. Everything from cardiac arrhythmias to brain tumor .. to epilepsy.. That is what physicians and CT scans and ECC are made for.

Best recommendation is for her to follow up with medical care.

R/r 911

 

[Stevo]

I have no equipment on me.

it's uncomfortable without the toys we're used to slallak, but anyone with a brain, and the ability to think things out at the point you were at is helpful.

Simply being witness to the event, serving as scribe, and initiating 911 is a big help initself

how many calls have we been on where someone of any medical caliber has been on the recieving end to give us a report? they may have only been with the patient for 10 minutes, but can gather a good amount of info pertinent to that patients transport, and provide a good starting piece of the continuity of care for them

to add, i know off duty responses are debated here. In my state it is unlawful for an ems'er to pass an incident.

so to those of you who actually have the choice, and choose to help 'without toys' becomes a whole new realm

i can recall a few myself , a rollover comes to mind. 2 girls in heavy trauma and all i had was a fanny pack

it sucked.

~S~

 

[slallak]

I didn't know

You guys have to remember that I didn't know at that time about the policy cause I did ask them to call and no one said anything so I was doing a rapid assesment Sample and opqrst. After she left I was talking to the department head and she told me about the policy.

 

[94accord]

to hell with the manager and their policies just yell out for someone to call 911. Personally someones health comes b4 any dumb store policy.

First, I would had called 911... I would inform them I would gladly have her attorneys call them for review of their policy and delay of care, which they caused. I am sure they would be glad to change.

Both very good points... even if i did know about the policy, i would still have superceded them and called from my cell if i HAD to. My state does not require us to stop at the scene if we see one. Hell... we can go right on by and never even call 911 if we don't want to (not that i would not AT LEAST call). Honestly, everyone already said the majority of what should have been done. I can think about it now, cause I am not in the situation, but if i was there, i probably would have frozen. I am new to EMS, and I have never worked 911... yes i am certified, but i doubt myself, and well.... yeah. You did a great thing helping her as much as you could.

 

[yowzer]

I would've called 911 when she started seizing.

Any store policy about who can call 911 only applies to employees, not customers. There wasn't a sign about it on the way in, was there?

 

[BossyCow]

I've run into this before, where 'policy' states only certain positions are authorized to call 911. One was a teacher who was told she could not call 911 from her classroom, she had to call the office (often staffed with students) and have someone from administration determine if 911 is warranted. The mother of a special needs child went into the office with a typed up notice from her atty. that stated the school policy was that her child would have to wait for a 911 determination in case of a medical emergency and that the school had been informed that this policy may result in the child's death and they were okay with assuming that liability.
I think it was the very next board meeting that the policy allowed for 'exceptions' to the rule.

The second was a nursing home who was required to contact the night duty on call R.N. (no nightime R.N. on the premises) prior to calling 911. They lost their licensure after an incident where the staff 'accidently' called 911 with a CPR in progress, then realized that policy told them to call the R.N. for approval first, so they called 911 back and said... 'nevermind' and discontinued CPR at the instruction of the R.N. The local ALS crew were already enroute, arrived to find no CPR being done on a Pt who had a shockable rhythm. Pt.'s downtime with no CPR was about 4 minutes with an LPN and 3 CNA's sitting around watching. Turns out the R.N. thought the pt was the guy in the next bed who was a DNR. Pt who died was recuperating from a hip replacement and had no previous cardiac history.

I would be real interested in hearing an atty's point of view on any policy which forbids someone to call 911 upon witnessing an emergency.

 

[captoman]

MN Law

This event was in MN. Slallack is my fiance. (I'm a lucky man!) In MN, there is a limited duty to act law, which basicly states that in this event ANY bystander has a duty to AT LEAST call 911. This includes store employees. So not only does thier policy delay care, but it is unlawful, exposing themselves to a crim neglect charge or more likely, a civil suit. :excl:

 

[fm_emt]

We responded to a call at an arts & crafts store, and they had a similar policy. The way it was explained to me made some sense. An employee would notify the nearest manager to call 911 immediately. The manager would then call 911 right away. If a manager wasn't within earshot, the employees would just call 911 from the nearest phone and notify the manager at the first possibly opportunity. So, there wasn't any delay in patient care. The managers simply wanted to know because they had a bunch of paperwork to fill out.

 

[KEVD18]

im so excited. usually somebody beats me to this response.

"press hard. three copies. transport self."

damn it feels good to be a gansta

 

[SwissEMT]

I never got that for some reason. What's that mean?

::feels dumb::

 

[Mercy4Angels]

you are the higher medical authority on the scene if you introduce yourself as an EMT. the store and its managers can go to hell use your cell right in front of them while calling 911. i would and i'd knock his arse out if he tried to touch me or physically stop me from calling. remember your safety first then crew then the patient.

 

[firecoins]

Just because your the higher medical authority means nothing without patient consent.

 

[Ridryder911]

Couple of things, the way I understood it, the responder is "off duty" so technically, they can only be a first responder. Second, anytime a person is confused and "woke up" means that they are not able to make rationale decisions at the time. Therefore, the law of "a reasonable man prevails. Which assumes, when someone is ill or hurt, they would want medical attention.

It is then if the patient becomes rationale of alertness and understanding of risks, patient can refuse treatment.

One does not need patient consent to contact 911 or seek emergency services. In fact by not doing so and one is a certified rescuer, a dilemma could occur. One I would not want to be involved in.


R/r 911

 

[Mercy4Angels]

yea you just said what i wanted to say better, lol.