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Pressure Point Techniques

Discussion in 'Education and Training' started by emskyusho, Dec 19, 2006.

  1. emskyusho

    emskyusho New Member

    Location:
    Flora, Illinois
    EMS Training:
    Student
    Hello All. My name is James Greenwood. I am a developer and trainer of new techniques for EMT personnel using pressure points, rather than "brute force" to help control combative patients, and more.
    Perhaps I should explain.
    I am a 5th degree black belt (Master Level) of Kyusho Jitsu. Before you get scared by the thought of karate, please understand that one does not need ANY experience in any form of martial arts to use these techniques!
    In my seminars and classes, I teach EMS personnel how to safely and effectively restrain a patient using simple methods with just a touch in the right place.
    This is very new, innovative, ground-breaking and revolutionary material that is positioned to take the world by storm. These simple techniques can make your job easier and safer for both you and the patient.
    I have already trained a number of EMT's and they are all amazed at the effectiveness and simplicity of these non-intrusive methods. This system has been tested and proven. If you are interested in learning more you may contact me directly, or I have a DVD available at http://www.kyusho.com/superstore.htm. I am also available to teach seminars. Please note that I am not just some guy trying to sell something. I have helped many EMT's but it is my goal to help many more with this system that I have been studying for the past 8 years.
    Thanks!
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2006
  2. Chimpie

    Chimpie EMTLife Tech Support Community Leader

    Location:
    Sarasota, FL
    EMS Training:
    MFR
    Welcome to EMTLife!

    I know someone who looks forward to talking with you.
  3. Summit

    Summit Critical Crap

    Location:
    Rocks and Snow
    who oh who could it be ;)
  4. emskyusho

    emskyusho New Member

    Location:
    Flora, Illinois
    EMS Training:
    Student
    Thanks for your interest. I have updated my profile with all of my contact information, including my website (www.kyushokarateusa.com). I'll admit though, the site is in the process of being updated (somewhat overdue). But it is full of lots of interesting information. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me at jimgreenwoodkarateusa@hotmail.com. EMS Kyusho will be featured in some EMS magazines in the upcoming year... be watching for it!
  5. DT4EMS

    DT4EMS Kip Teitsort, Founder

    Location:
    Cartersville, GA
    EMS Training:
    EMT-Paramedic
    Welcome to EMTlife.

    Good luck on your endeavor. I think you will find pressure points work well on people who feel pain.

    I am totally against teaching pessure points in the field to EMS for anything other than a distration. If pressure points are taught for "control" that is a farce. I have had to fight intoxicated and drugged people in the past...... and being the department's DT instructor I had to try and "prove" certain things worked. Well........... pressure points (aside from a Brachial Stun and the Common Peroneal) were not effective.

    We teach pressure points during a DT4EMS class.......... the funny thing is more people than not (avg 60%) have no effect of at least one or more. So my students see the value in them maybe "creating space to escape" but useless in control.

    The studies (accepted b the NAEMSP's position paper) state it takes a MINIMUM of 5 people to properly "medically" restrain a person. That needs to be kept in mind while training EMS.

    I agree with not teaching brute force. The EMS setting is unlike any other in the world. EMS providers are thrust into numerous types of scenes and situations. Teaching force on force and then to claim self-defense is not always that easy.

    It has been through my own experience and research in talking with hundreds of EMS providers the "usual" attacker is usually high ordrugged. Most professional EMS providers to a great job of "customer service" which is the best self-defense. If they are on an unsafe scene they need to work to leave....... period.

    Teaching LEO DT or martial arts to an EMS provider, specifically one who does not train on a regular basis, is only setting the provider up for problems........ both on the street and in the courtroom afterwards.

    Again good luck. I think you will find that any type of EMS self-defense course will be a huge undertaking. If an EMS provider happens to be a regular student of yours then the point is mute. They already learn the mindset, how to read body posture, how to run and how to take charge of their own physical fitness.
  6. emskyusho

    emskyusho New Member

    Location:
    Flora, Illinois
    EMS Training:
    Student
    As I said before, this material is revolutionary. It is no surprise that very few people know about pressure points, or their potential. First off, let me explain further how this works. Kyusho Jitsu is based on the acupuncture points on the body. When a certain point is manipulated in just the right way, it interrupts the body’s neurological response of the nervous system. The main rule that you have to follow when striking pressure points is to use the correct angle and direction for each point, and how each one is activated by striking, pressing, or rubbing. All of these rules must be followed in order for the pressure points to work. This is why so many people have tried and failed and then say that Kyusho Jitsu doesn't work and it's fake. They are just doing it wrong, don't want to admit it and/or don't realize it.

    While I say that this is “new and revolutionary”, I only mean that in the EMS sense, and to Westerners. Kyusho Jitsu actually originated in Okinawa thousands of years ago, but was a very well-kept secret. It wasn’t until Tiaka Oyata brought it over in the 1980’s that anybody outside of Okinawa knew anything about this. I originally began learning Kyusho from GrandMaster George Dillman, and Master D.M. Hurst who were among Oyata’s first American students. Dillman trained alongside Bruce Lee until Lee’s death.

    That being said, I understand that there is bound to be some initial skepticism regarding this. People were once skeptical of seat belts, too.

    Kyusho can be used as MORE than just a fighting technique. I can teach “hitting”, but in restraint techniques I teach pressing – not strikes. While it is important for EMS personnel to know good self-defense, that’s just a small part. If a patient is flailing their arm and you are trying to insert an I.V. wouldn’t it be nice to be able to hold that arm completely still without injuring the patient? You do not need 5 people to restrain one person. That is what I am teaching.

    And in response to your last point, I do not just teach my own students. I hold seminars for EMS personnel, and have never received anything but rave reviews about the progress that I am making. It may be something you have to experience to believe. This really does work, if properly trained. I offer a full money-back guarantee on my seminars. It takes PROPER training to learn Kyusho pressure point techniques – not just one or two random points shown improperly. It takes proper instruction, just as it requires proper instruction to be an EMT or to do anything else.
  7. DT4EMS

    DT4EMS Kip Teitsort, Founder

    Location:
    Cartersville, GA
    EMS Training:
    EMT-Paramedic
    Please understand I do not doubt your system or “techniques”. What I am saying is that I am a martial artist, a police officer and a paramedic. Those three things are separate.

    I was a PPCT (Pressure Point Control Tactics) Instructor for police officers. You can ask the majority of people I “touch” in training know that I understand what I am doing. But nothing is 100%.
    PPCT went through tons of research including that of martial practitioners and western medicine physicians as well. Then PPCT has been on the streets for quite some time. Since it’s adoption, many officers on the street have found many of the pressure points to be ineffective on people that are high or drunk.

    I take the training of EMS in pressure points one step further…….. we give them a medical reason “why” something will or won’t work. But to teach “pain compliance” to EMS is heading in the wrong direction. Like I said before, teaching a self-defense seminar is one thing, but to teach the EMS provider is something totally different.

    I am all for you training and conducting seminars. I too have taught hundreds of EMS providers in self-defense. I have taught seminars at state level law enforcement conferences as well. My DT4EMS course has been accepted for CEU’s since 1997.

    Teaching a pressure point to free someone from (to use South Narc’s term) the “FUT” (Funked up tangle) is only asking for problems. There was a guy from Illinois I met years ago who studied with people like Dillman and took the full power kicks to the groin and throat. Now while I agree very impressive wouldn’t it be better to spend time learning how to “prevent” the power blow from making contact?

    We have guys in my school that are SCARS certified, black belts in Judo, Karate and TKD. We also have guys that have traveled and trained in ground fighting. We take these things and blend the thing we find more practical than not. We don’t just “teach” things without “pressure testing”.

    This pressure testing has consisted of taking a “technique” and getting another person to get really pumped up and start attacking………. not pre-planned and see “what” comes out under stress. We have thrown out many “techniques” because they have failed in combat (or under stress conditions).

    Since fine motor skills decrease or cease to exist under stress, I am always leery of anything that requires pinpoint accuracy for its use.

    I say these things because I have had to fight for my life……….for real. I have also researched extensively EMS and self-defense. This is my passion……not just a business. DT4EMS has cost me thousands of dollars and I give away way more than I have ever received.



    Your system may be great. I applaud you for training EMS providers. Just realize, just like the UFC proved in the early 1990’s…………. not every centuries old “technique” works in the real world. That is a lesson I had to learn the hard way.

    Again, good luck …… I am always interested in hearing what others have to say. I am the constant student.

    Here are some pics of "pressure testing"

    http://emtlife.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=63&stc=1&d=1166633961

    http://emtlife.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=64&stc=1&d=1166634055

    http://emtlife.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=65&stc=1&d=1166634086

    Sam, the guy with the blood and knot on his head became a friend after he attended a DT4EMS class. He spent several years in Karate prior to trainign with us. Now he is an active part of spreading the word to other health care providers.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2006
  8. jmaccauley

    jmaccauley New Member

    EMS Training:
    Student
    I hadn't gotten completely through your opening comments before the name George Dillman flash through my brain. Now, don't get me wrong, I have no beef with any martial artist who shares useful information with both practitioners and non-practitioners alike. I sit up and take notice when I hear phrases such as: New, revolutionary, correct techniques and effectiveness. The EMS community is no different than any private citizen when it comes to the desire to be able to effectively protect themselves from violence. The restraining of a patient is a very specialized area and should rightly be treated as such. As DT4EMS stated, basic pressure point restraint techniques work on those who are suceptible to pain compliance. In other words, if they want the pain to stop, they stop the act. Those who are under the influence of drugs/alcohol, those who are emotionally unstable and those who are "just palin focused," will not be effected by simple pressure point control.Of course, Dillman and his protege's know many techniques that can disable and in some cases, incapacitate, the subjects, but that is not something easily learned. Also, in the fast moving, dynamic setting of a medical emergency, the use of such a questionable restraining method could be disasterous.

    You are absolutely correct in your assessment that EMS personnel need to be taught skills that will provide them with a certain degree of protection from violence. I encourage your continued research into control techniques that will find itself being useful in the field as opposed to the dojo.

    Lastly, the fact that you have a money back guarantee on your training seems a little silly. This might be better suited for your karate school. However, how much is your guarantee worth when your training is used on that one person that wasn't incapacitated or restrained the way you promised?
  9. DT4EMS

    DT4EMS Kip Teitsort, Founder

    Location:
    Cartersville, GA
    EMS Training:
    EMT-Paramedic
    There always seems to be a lot of confusion when it comes to real defensive tactics training and martial arts or fighting.

    Defensive Tactics training has to cover many subjects including stress and how it affects the body, survival mindset, use of force levels, legal aspects, techniques and documentation. (Usually in a short amount of time)
    Due to the time table being short, the “techniques” taught must be limited to techniques that are easy to learn, easy to use and natural to remember.

    Martial arts, regardless of the style, generally involve training to win the scenario/situation. A lot of times training to fight their own style. Sometimes this “win” may be perceived differently in a court of law.

    Fighting can best be described as two willing combatants meeting in the middle of the street. No one wins in a fight. A person may have little or no formal training and feel they are always ready to fight. Keep in mind a person who fights all the time may have more training and experience without ever being formally taught anything.

    The words defensive tactics when taught to law enforcement is really a play on words. It should be called Aggressive Tactics. Real DT training for EMS has to deal with recognition, avoidance and escape that is where the word defensive comes in. LEO DT teaches things like mechanics of arrest and control. Control as nothing to do with defense, control is actually an aggressive action.

    Some of the confusion surfaces when a martial arts instructor tries to teach DT without taking the “win” or the “fight” out of the equation. If a person uses a skill learned in a DT class to escape that IS a win. Beating a person to a pulp may be a physical win only to lose in a court battle.

    DT4EMS does not claim to train people to win MMA events or “take on all comers” The idea is to give EMS providers options rather than just falling victim to an assault and stating it’s just part of the job. Read the Six steps to scene safety here:
    http://www.dt4ems.net/forums/index.php?topic=12.0
    DT4EMS encourages participants to seek out quality training both as physical fitness and stress reduction regardless of the style.

    In DT4EMS the participants are taught to get their hands up and open and to try and create space. This action cannot be confused with a willing combatant.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with training in any style just as long as you are aware of “why” you train. So defensive tactics training isn’t about training to learn a million submissions or gain knock out power with strikes. Instead it is a plan to find the way out. If a person trains in DT and wants to pursue a martial arts or combatives program then they will have a working knowledge of laws and force levels and documentation skills.
    If you are a person who is EMS and already trains in martial arts, boxing, wrestling etc. you already have a great base of skills to help protect yourself in a violent encounter. The trick is to train.
  10. jmaccauley

    jmaccauley New Member

    EMS Training:
    Student
    In all fairness Jim, and I know that this seems like you're being jumped on here, but hear me out. You are a martial artist. Several of us on this forum are also. When teaching, or more correctly, facilitating our peers, we must be careful to put things in their proper context. For example, I know of many ways to strike, throw, block, take down and partially or completely incapacitate another human being. That being said, will I be able to teach you when to use what degree of force to restrain or disable another person? Hopefully I can give you some tools for your toolbox and create many learning scenarios so that you may be better equipped to recall an appropriate level of response. I don't know if you are a paramedic or deal with the public in a custodial setting, but there arre many, many limitations and restrictions on what we can do. Do we want our peers and students to survive a violent encounter? Absolutely. There are firearms and verbal judo at our disposal. Please put your training methods and techniques into the proper context and you will get a much better response. I regularly train SWAT and high risk security personnel in countermeasures, but I don't teach those techniques to youth groups. I do teach the same mindset however. Survival mentality is universal: pressure point control is not.
  11. emskyusho

    emskyusho New Member

    Location:
    Flora, Illinois
    EMS Training:
    Student
    EMS Kyusho DVD

    As always, I’m glad to meet a fellow martial artist. I invite you to come to any of the seminars or camps me or my instructor is having this year that I will be at too. I have not yet set up any seminars of my own this up coming year yet but plan on doing that soon. As I tell anyone, you are more than welcome to come to my school also to share and train. I like to meet and train with new people, constantly sharing and learning as much as I can. So what tactics do you teach for DT4EMS to help control a person that needs medical attention but is being combative in the ambulance? I too am the constant student, as I have studied more than 10 different martial arts. I read your 6 steps for DT4EMS and they are very sound rules to follow and to train. I also teach people to avoid dangerous situations and pretty much exactly what you teach for entering any situation. I DO NOT teach EMS to fight.

    Now one thing about EMS Kyusho is not all of what I teach is just pain compliance, it has a lot to do with muscle and neurological control. I fully understand that not everything is 100% and I’m not saying that this is fully guaranteed because nothing is but it gives you something else to put in your tool box that works very well. I have had students deal with violent drunk/intoxicated patience with great success using what I have taught them. As for telling people why what does what medically… I too do the same and explain why certain things do what. Kyusho International (The group I am the head instructor for Illinois) has done extensive research on the medical side of PP with cadavers and other medical studies and medical tests as well. As for George Dillman I am no longer in that group but I was for years. KI focuses on real proven tactics that have been taken to the mat or worked on the street with LEO or EMS with out the mumbo jumbo.

    “The studies (accepted b the NAEMSP's position paper) state it takes a MINIMUM of 5 people to properly "medically" restrain a person. That needs to be kept in mind while training EMS.”

    This is great but how often do you have 5 people available in the back of an ambulance to restrain someone? Most people that I have worked with say you may have 2 or 3 at most if you are lucky.

    “Martial arts, regardless of the style, generally involve training to win the scenario/situation. A lot of times training to fight their own style. Sometimes this “win” may be perceived differently in a court of law.”

    I’m not teaching people to “Win” or fight or even hit anyone (not once do I show to hit anything)… just help do what they have to do anyway and maybe help what they have to do safer and easier and survive. Also YES this is the last step taken to control a patient in situations that are life threatening to you. And I am aware of consequences and court defensible solutions this is why I teach this.

    I have a money back guarantee on all my seminars for the reason that if you truly believe after the seminar that you can not use SOMETHING you have learned I will refund your money. This goes for EMS or martial artists alike. So if people feel they don’t learn anything at all that they could use to make what they already do easier and safer they get their money back. No I don’t refund money if something fails them in the field. Or as a martial artists if you get you’re a$$ kicked on the street after one of my seminars I will not refund your money. The refund is for the day of the seminar at the seminar only. Anything can fail but you train in as many different things as you can to help what you do.

    Scenario- If you are leaning over a patient already in the ambulance on the cot and suddenly they grab your stethoscope and try to pull you down to them to bite your face or choke you with the stethoscope… What do you do? Do you grab there arms and try to get them to let go of the equipment or do you do something else?

    Most of the scenarios on this DVD and what I teach has to deal with people already on the cot and in the truck. This can also be used for continuing Ed hours for your certification.

    Here is the link to the seminars for this year:

    http://www.kyusho.com/jimcorn2007.htm


    Anyway if you want this training DVD I have it is available at the link in the first post. Also if you want to contact me personally or book a seminar my information is on my website listed above and my email is jimgreenwoodkarateusa@hotmail.com.



    Thank you and happy holidays
    :)
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2006
  12. emskyusho

    emskyusho New Member

    Location:
    Flora, Illinois
    EMS Training:
    Student
    No I'm not

    No I am not an EMT but I have continuously had students that were EMT’s or nurses or doctors over the past 14 years. These are the people that have come to me wanting solutions for combative patience in an ambulance and in the ER when you can’t leave the situation and you have to control them. I fully understand the limitations of what EMS personnel can and can not do.
  13. DT4EMS

    DT4EMS Kip Teitsort, Founder

    Location:
    Cartersville, GA
    EMS Training:
    EMT-Paramedic

    That is great. :)

    I created DT4EMS from a medic's perspective, not a police officer or martial artist. I have 16 years in EMS and 11 in Law Enforcement.

    What I want you to do is reassure us to make sure your program is not like so many others that try to take and use EMS and promote another "widget". A widget is where people take a product from Wal-Mart, paint it blue and sell it for 10 times the amount because they say it is for EMS.
    You know the way others took nunchuka, Tonfa etc and painted black and sold to LEO.

    Now to answer your question about tactics. The meat of it is in the "Six steps to scene safety".

    The most important this is to seperate "patient" from "attacker".

    I will say it is very easy to restrain a combative patient........ in other words..... one who's purpose is not to harm you because they are confused.

    An intoxicated 300lb biker who says he is coming off the stretcher to kill you is a whole 'nother animal. Been there....done that.

    Now keep doing what you are doing............ by all means. You are helping to stimulate discussion about the topic of EMS safety. I can agree to disagree. Again I have worked the field.......... done the pressure point thing..... karate thing and so on. I don't knock anyone's style/sytem.

    Heck hard-style is where I got my start.

    And it isn't what I can do at the end of 16 hours of training........... it's what the participant can do.........

    Like I said before. Welcome to the forums and I truly wish you good luck. Just remember to teach the provider the levels of force, documentation and courtroom demeanor.
  14. emskyusho

    emskyusho New Member

    Location:
    Flora, Illinois
    EMS Training:
    Student
    my training

    Don't have a lot of time to write but wanted to clear up I don't just do hard style MA. I have trained in Jujutsu, Aikido and BJJ too. Thanks for your comments and concerns and I hope you all understand I am not trying to cookie cut something to just make money off of it by saying it is for EMS. I truly want to help EMS personnel as I have many that are very good friends of mine that study from me and also that are just friends that do not study MA of any kind from me. Also to re-stress this is so not a "martial art" and you do not have to know a ma of any kind to apply this stuff.

    Also I have developed this from what the EMS and doctors told me they can and can not do and what will work for them. By constant feedback and working on this over the years this has not been an over night thing I have created. I fully agree that it is totally different if a 300lb biker is coming up off the cot at you. But like you've said too nothing is 100% no matter what it is they are all just more tools to use to help you do your job.

    Thanks

    Jim
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2006
  15. emskyusho

    emskyusho New Member

    Location:
    Flora, Illinois
    EMS Training:
    Student
    This DVD has now been on the market for two weeks. I just thought I would pass along the first feedback I've gotten on it. This is from an EMT:

    "Your DVD is good. When I finish making my notes, I'm going to see if I can interest security in it and maybe get it included in the physical training we get. Right now, we just use CPI and that isn't worth much in a real confrontation. The verbal deescalation skills are great but the physical interventions are not."
  16. jmaccauley

    jmaccauley New Member

    EMS Training:
    Student
    How long is a typical training seminar? Can you effectively teach a student, with little or no combative arts experience, the correct angle and direction of a pressure point in a relatively short period of time? What would be the liability of a practitioner who inadvertantly causes a stroke in a patient who has a head trauma? Or could that even happen? How effective would those techniques be on a patient exhibiting signs of excited delirium or substance psychosis? I understand that in a violent, life and death attack, anything goes, but what of that unruly patient who needs to be restrained?

    I'm asking these questions as an administrator who wants to know what my employees will be trained in and what my liability is.
  17. jmaccauley

    jmaccauley New Member

    EMS Training:
    Student
    By the way, have you really been studying martial arts since you were 3?
  18. emskyusho

    emskyusho New Member

    Location:
    Flora, Illinois
    EMS Training:
    Student
    When I started training

    From when I was about 4 or 5 my dad taught me at home and got me up to a green belt level in TKD before I could take class because they didn't take kids until they were 8 years old. Of course I wasn't officially tested but I could do all the stuff… So I had to go thru each belt after I started “formally” taking classes but I still count my dad as my first instructor. Also Dad was teaching me JKD as he had learned some from someone he knew long ago. I got my first black belt when I was 12 years old (March 1985). So no not 3 but before I even started kindergarten as a kid I was out in our garage/training room kicking the bags and learning forms.

    My father has been doing Martial Arts for around 35 years. He was close to black belt level when I started taking regular class but he waited for me to be ready to test and we tested the same day for black belt. If you have any more questions about my MA background please visit www.kyushokarateusa.com and go to the "About Us" page. I still have every certificate I ever got starting with my first yellow belt certificate January 1980.

    Oh and my birthday is tomorrow… I will be 34. ;)

    Thanks

    Jim
  19. jmaccauley

    jmaccauley New Member

    EMS Training:
    Student
    Quite an accomplishment You should be proud and I'm sure your children will be learning from Dad as well. I have also been heavily involved in MA for over 30 years, however I started when I was 20. I always remember thinking that I was a better fighter before I learned how to fight. But after several life altering revelations, I realized that there is much more to MA than fighting. I'll always be greatful for those experiences, even though some were painful.
  20. emskyusho

    emskyusho New Member

    Location:
    Flora, Illinois
    EMS Training:
    Student
    basic training session

    “How long is a typical training seminar?”

    The basic training session is two 4 hour sessions and I can do this in one day or spread it over 2 days doing 4 hours one day and the other 4 the next. I cover everything on the DVD as well as answer and cover any material and questions that come up during the training session. Or we can break it up into a bi-weekly class such as do a Saturday class and then do another Saturday class in two weeks. It helps to slit it up sometimes as going thru it all in one day can some times be over whelming so the second day is kinda like a refresher course and making sure they can do it. Although after saying that most get it and can do it effectively after the first session but practice is needed to maintain proficiency as with anything.


    “Can you effectively teach a student, with little or no combative arts experience, the correct angle and direction of a pressure point in a relatively short period of time?”

    Yes I have had many EMS and hospital personnel that have had NO martial arts experience at all and they learned it fine. One lady that was there was a 5’ 6” 120lb 45 year old woman and she did very well and I heard stories back from others as well as her how much she was amazed how well this worked after just a 6 hour class. I know I said two 4 hour classes above; I just want to plan to make sure everyone does get it. Also anyone can email me and ask me any questions at any time.

    “What would be the liability of a practitioner who inadvertently causes a stroke in a patient who has a head trauma? Or could that even happen?”

    What is your regular liability for your state if someone causes more injury to the person while doing their job? EMS get training and use what ever they need to do there job and as long as it isn’t excessive force and they aren’t negligent this should not cause any more legal liability than something like that happening with other training they have had.

    Now… could it happen? I have never heard of anyone having a stroke related to the use of PP on them. I mean anything is possible but not likely more than any other physical restraining techniques.

    “How effective would those techniques be on a patient exhibiting signs of excited delirium or substance psychosis?”

    I have heard many success stories using PP on people like this and some that said they had trouble. Now with that said if you can “read” what they are on like say if they are drunk, points on the head neck and face get a good response. But how ever doing some things to the arms or legs might be ineffective on this same person.

    I hope this answers most of your questions.

    Thanks

    Jim

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