NREMT slashes required CE hours!

DrParasite

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EpiEMS said:
NYS lets you do a 36 hour refresher every three years to recert, if you want to,. It's not a terrible option - take a pre-test and a skills test, then skip the classes you don't "need" to retake based on knowledge/ability, then take the state cognitive exam. Pretty easy.
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back in 2002ish, I remember being some discussion about changing from the pre test and skills test you discussed, and going to a strictly continuing education refresher, and once you complete all the con ed, you get a new card, without needing to reset. After seeing what happens in Jersey, I was very much against it.

I'm actually 100% in favor of everyone needing to pass the original entry level written exam (updated to the current standards, of course) and practical (provided by a neutral party, IE, not your agency or coworkers) as a condition of maintaining your credential. If you can't pass the entry level exam, you have no business holding that certification, regardless of whether this is you have been doing the job for 2 years or 20.
 
EpiEMS

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DrParasite said:
back in 2002ish, I remember being some discussion about changing from the pre test and skills test you discussed, and going to a strictly continuing education refresher, and once you complete all the con ed, you get a new card, without needing to reset. After seeing what happens in Jersey, I was very much against it.
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Seems nutty to me. Jersey does that? You can just get your original card, take your CE and recert?

DrParasite said:
I'm actually 100% in favor of everyone needing to pass the original entry level written exam (updated to the current standards, of course) and practical (provided by a neutral party, IE, not your agency or coworkers) as a condition of maintaining your credential. If you can't pass the entry level exam, you have no business holding that certification, regardless of whether this is you have been doing the job for 2 years or 20.
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I like the idea, I'm just not sure it would take hold, politically, if you will. Especially because so many folks maintain EMS certification as a collateral duty.
 
STXmedic

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VentMonkey said:
If anyone can substantiate this, by all means feel free. I do believe @STXmedic is an EMS instructor, perhaps he can enlighten us?
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Neither I, nor our program director have heard of anything. Just asked him after reading this.
 
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Summit

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@many folks:

The current NREMT 24 hour refresher for basic reinforcement just doesn't rise to the repeated claim I see in this thread of "repeating initial certification." The whole thing that was SUPPOSED to happen was spend 24 hours making sure EMTs get the basic "don't hurt your patients" and hopefully spend 48 hours on something like an A&P course, or IV and EKG classes.

A lot of people were able to take a 45-50 hour WEMT upgrade that integrated refresher content!

You could usually fill in the 24 hours of core "refresher" content through other means too, because they weren't so specific like the NCCP model.

Now we have NCCP 20 hours of VERY VERY VERY SPECIFIC "don't kill your patient" content. 10 hours of state/local "protocol review/skills training." And 10 hours of whatever elective, certainly no enticement for EMTs (or AEMTs or Medics) to take college classes for CE.

EpiEMS said:
I totally agree, but I'm not sure how willing people are to change from EMT (~200 hours) as the entry-to-practice level...
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You can do an NREMT course in 150 hours INCLUDING clinicals and testing.

Why is anyone surprised that reinforcement is needed every two years?
 
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NysEms2117

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I remember back a few years ago, my friend said that he applied for reciprocity(NY->NJ), and NJ gave him their card, and he just re-applied for reciprocity every time and didn't have to take any tests, or classes. he "got away" with it 2 times.
 
DrParasite

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EpiEMS said:
Seems nutty to me. Jersey does that? You can just get your original card, take your CE and recert?
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I should probably clarify that.... Because NJ does it, NC does it, NR does it, and I'm sure there are plenty of other states that do too.. Yes, you need to retest, but it's with a local instructor, so if the instructor knows you, they are more willing to help you out. After all, no one wants to be known as the instructor who fails people for not meeting the standards, then people will stop hiring that instructor to do the classes. You do need to pass a practical exams (at least on paper, and at least in theory), but outside of NY, I wasn't aware of any state that required you to take the proctored state entry level exam to maintain your credential once you expired.

I'm convinced that is also how many fire department based EMS providers maintain their credentials, because they know the elevators, and no one wants to fail their coworker and cost them their job, despite being mediocre providers at best (but that's an entirely different topic).

and @NysEms2117, reciprocity is different... in NY, they will grant you a card once, with the same expiration as your current card... after that, you need to recert through their process (jammed up a buddy of mine who was granted reciprocity when his NJ cert was expiring that month, which was the same date of expiration they gave for his NY card; lesson learned, when possible, apply for reciprocity after you have a new card). But oddly enough, you can be an EMT in NJ using a PA or NY card, no reciprocity is needed (but again, that's an entirely different topic).

Kinda weird that NJ let him do it multiple times, but I guess the thinking is, if you can pass the requirements for one state, you should be good enough for the other.
 
NysEms2117

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EpiEMS

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Summit said:
You can do an NREMT course in 150 hours INCLUDING clinicals and testing.

Why is anyone surprised that reinforcement is needed every two years?
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No disagreement. That being said, if you're an active practitioner, one should hope you're seeing the common stuff - and probably could use a refresher on the less frequent/more serious complaints?

DrParasite said:
After all, no one wants to be known as the instructor who fails people for not meeting the standards, then people will stop hiring that instructor to do the classes.
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Herein lies a major flaw in the testing/"educational" system for EMS.

DrParasite said:
I'm convinced that is also how many fire department based EMS providers maintain their credentials, because they know the elevators, and no one wants to fail their coworker and cost them their job, despite being mediocre providers at best (but that's an entirely different topic).
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Thiiiis. Though when I took an NYS recert class, the exam was proctored by independent-seeming folks (same sort of demographics as folks that proctor the SAT).
 
DrParasite

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NysEms2117 said:
Only reason i even mentioned it is since he skipped the CEU's and Re-cert tests all in all. I avoid all NREMT things so I am moot here :)
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sure, but I am assuming he completed all the requirements to re-certify in NYS, correct? IE, he either did all the NYS con ed and/or passed the tests again, correct? and if he did, wouldn't you assume it was redundant for him to do it all over again for NJ?

it's not like he did absolutely nothing to get a new card, he did need to follow the steps for NY
EpiEMS said:
Though when I took an NYS recert class, the exam was proctored by independent-seeming folks (same sort of demographics as folks that proctor the SAT).
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Mine too (and NC is the same way). you finish you class, than you schedule your state test at the regional testing site, so there is no question that proctor doesn't know you, and was able to help you with the exam. it's a completely objective testing process.

Although I think that paying a little extra for getting your results immediately after the exam was well worth it.
 
EpiEMS

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DrParasite said:
Although I think that paying a little extra for getting your results immediately after the exam was well worth it.
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One of the many reasons why I like the NREMT approach - Kaplan or whomever runs the cognitive testing, and they're pretty good about both exam security and turning around results.
 
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New bump because many of us are now looking at NCCP in two years.
 
PassionMedic

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EpiEMS said:
I like this argument for sure - but it could also lead to practitioners who are abandoning national registry in favor of just maintaining a state license, thus undermining the idea of a national standard for practitioners, no?



I haven't been able to find any data on this - but I'd believe it. Are you aware of any substantiation for this stat?
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I can try to find the graduate thesis I read that cited the same information. It uses 5 years as the bench mark of longevity in EMS because of high burnout rates.


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New bump because it is downright painful to write a training curriculum to match NCCP
 
VentMonkey

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This doesn’t make me feel particularly thrilled about my next go round of NRP CE’s. What’s worse is that a lot of CCP/ FP-C CE’s don’t carry over.
 
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VentMonkey said:
This doesn’t make me feel particularly thrilled about my next go round of NRP CE’s. What’s worse is that a lot of CCP/ FP-C CE’s don’t carry over.
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You mean your training about managing ventilated patients doesn't fit into the NCCP required 60 minutes about Human Trafficking? Maybe you can make it cover the 2 hours of NCCP required Special Populations training since in theory your vent patients might have tracheotomies and central lines.

(This is what I mean by the pain of finding ways to cram training into fulfilling NCCP)
 
TransportJockey

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This is why I'm just going to recert by exam
 
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TransportJockey

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Summit said:
The NREMT is laughing all the way to the bank
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All my recert hours for fpc were from last certification. I'm not going to pay several hundred for the ce hours to satisfy their requirements. I figure 150 too pass the dead simple test and I'm good
 
ViolynEMT

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I'm confused as to what is required now with the new rules. I'm signed up for a refresher that counts as 24 hours. That is enough to satisfy state requirements. The director at the school says that I will need another 16 hours of CE, but the NREMT says that only 20 hours is required by them for EMT, 30 for medic. That tells me that the refresher should be all I need......
 
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